and away we go. CDC vaccine committee canceled

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ZenMode said:
If you believe that life begins at conception, or heartbeat or brain activity, wouldn't decades of ended human lives, under Roe, be proof of harm?
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Only if you could prove it beyond doubt. Even then , you really have to defend the concept of a soul.
 
4thgenheel said:
people believe a lot of dumb shit.

science and common sense and legal precedents say that life begins at viability.

fetus/womb is essentially a parasite/host relationship until viability at which time the fetus should be granted more rights. until then, pregnant women must have bodily autonomy.
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"science and common sense and legal precedents say that life begins at viability."

Biologists from 1,058 academic institutions around the world assessed survey items on when a human's life begins and, overall, 96% (5337 out of 5577) affirmed the fertilization view.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Scientific Consensus on When a Human's Life Begins - PubMed

Peer-reviewed journals in the biological and life sciences literature have published articles that represent the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization ("the fertilization view"). As those statements are typically offered without explanation or citation, the fertilization...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
 
ZenMode said:
"science and common sense and legal precedents say that life begins at viability."

Biologists from 1,058 academic institutions around the world assessed survey items on when a human's life begins and, overall, 96% (5337 out of 5577) affirmed the fertilization view.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Scientific Consensus on When a Human's Life Begins - PubMed

Peer-reviewed journals in the biological and life sciences literature have published articles that represent the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization ("the fertilization view"). As those statements are typically offered without explanation or citation, the fertilization...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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there's no citation for the survey....

It is worth repeating: “life begins at conception” is a religious, not scientific, concept - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 
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Shenanigans said:
It is on the horizon. Their efforts to hurt liberals will inevitably affect all the poor rubes. It might be a year or two, but gutting the middle class, and taking away the only safety nets from the poor, will cause mass chaos. People won't even know who they are fighting, but they will be ready to fight, mark my words. We will accomplish little, but I 100% know that I will take a shit on very specific redneck faces during the chaos. I know who they are, therefore plans are in the works.

Fuck the MAGAts!
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Can we make that “fuck the MAGAS” like the legend of King Edward II’s demise.
 
4thgenheel said:
there's no citation for the survey....

It is worth repeating: “life begins at conception” is a religious, not scientific, concept - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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I agree that religious people tend to believe that life begins at conception. However, that isn't the only basis for that belief and it doesn't mean that there isn't a scientific basis for the belief.

Your NIH link begins with a sentence about the "shock" of Roe being overturned. Clearly not a sign of an objective, scientific paper.

acpeds.org

When Human Life Begins - American College of Pediatricians

American College of Pediatricians – March 2017 ABSTRACT: The predominance [...]
acpeds.org acpeds.org

An objective, scientific basis (link above) doesn't talk about emotion.

ABSTRACT: The predominance of human biological research confirms that human life begins at conception—fertilization. At fertilization, the human being emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species Homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is one of form, not nature. This statement focuses on the scientific evidence of when an individual human life begins.
 
ZenMode said:
acpeds.org

When Human Life Begins - American College of Pediatricians

American College of Pediatricians – March 2017 ABSTRACT: The predominance [...]
acpeds.org acpeds.org

An objective, scientific basis (link above) doesn't talk about emotion.
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There is nothing scientific in that paper. That's because the question is not scientific at all. It's just a question of labels. There are various tests for whether a statement is scientific, and that paper fails all of them. Is it falsifiable that life begins at conception? No. It would be true of any antecedent stage of an organism, regardless of its properties. Is it verifiable? For the same reason, no. Does it have any predictive value? No. Whether or not the zygote is "alive" tells you nothing about the nature of the zygote, its structure, its maturation process, nothing.

You can make the same argument that the zygote is "not alive" by pointing to its inability to survive absent a specific environment created by another organism. Parasites require a specific environment to thrive, but they don't immediately die if removed from that environment. Needless to say, it's the same category mistake to say that a zygote is "not alive." These are not scientific questions any more than "does God exist" is a scientific question.

And that isn't a neutral paper. It's published by these folks:

"The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a socially conservative advocacy group of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States, founded in 2002. The group advocates in favor of abstinence-only sex education and conversion therapy, and advocates against vaccine mandates, abortion rights and rights for LGBT people.

en.wikipedia.org

American College of Pediatricians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

But I'm sure they aren't being emotional, not at all.
 
ZenMode said:
If you believe that life begins at conception, or heartbeat or brain activity, wouldn't decades of ended human lives, under Roe, be proof of harm?
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By the biological definition, both egg and sperm are alive, so life begins before conception.
A donated chunk of liver is alive. What rights does it have? Should failure to implant it while still viable result in murder charges?
 
Healing said:
This. I’ve said time and again gt and zen are the most successful trolls in the history of zzlp 1.0 or 2.0. They continually convince well meaning folks to respond with substance, only to very predictably move the goalposts, while constructing a strawman.
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Exactly.

Why does anyone reply to ZenMode or Yellowjacket or OGMisterImpartial?

I’ve been guilty of doing so. I try to not do so.

Please don’t reply to them.
 
BlooVooDoo said:
By the biological definition, both egg and sperm are alive, so life begins before conception.
A donated chunk of liver is alive. What rights does it have? Should failure to implant it while still viable result in murder charges?
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I'm not making the argument that life begins at conception. I'm making the argument that when human life begins is subjective.
 
ZenMode said:
I'm not making the argument that life begins at conception. I'm making the argument that when human life begins is subjective.
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There is not a single woman on this earth, including your entire family, who is counting on you to advocate for their Healthcare and medical decisions
 
finesse said:
Then, clearly, no one should interfere in someone else's decision, wouldn't you say? Anything else seems awfully Big Brotherish.
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So, you want to legalize murder, because my neighbor decided that life isn't begin until a child can feed itself. I shouldn't interfere, right? I mean, is a child really viable before it can keep itself alive?
 
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