Biorhythms for Wake Forest Game, 9 pm Tip

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Turd Ferguson said:
I don't think anyone is saying they want the old UNC back. They want them to be able to be successful on a consistent basis in today's world of college sports. If other programs can do it then UNC should be able to, also.
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It may not be as simple as getting a different coach. In fact it almost surely isn’t.
 
Bigs23 said:
It may not be as simple as getting a different coach. In fact it almost surely isn’t.
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You are not living in the real world if you don't think Hubert will be on the hot seat if they don't make the tournament this year and improve significantly next year. That is a fact.
 
Bigs23 said:
No, that’s just you bending someone else’s opinion into something to support your belief.

Prioritizing character isn’t an admission of anything. It’s an overarching principle.
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I agree that we should prioritize character. I have absolutely no argument with that.

Where we disagree is that I think we've long prioritized character and been a leading program in college basketball and I want to see us continue that combination. You're the one that posted the idea that there has to be a tradeoff between the two.

But, as a general rule, when folks trying to support a coach start hyping up how moral/ethical they are and that they "do things the right way", you can make a fairly accurate assumption that the performance on the court/field has been lacking.
 
finesse said:
Then you better get a time machine. Those days of four year players and such are gone and are any restraints on transferring. Fwiw, Gut won with Dean's players. His recruiting left us with Adam Boone and Brian Morrison as our backcourt.

But, as I said earlier, I don't need that immediate success to support the program. I came in as a fan at a time like that. I also don't want to see us overcommit to completely changing how we do things in a transitory period that is almost certainly going to be modified over the next few years.
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I'm not expecting the old UNC or CBB back. College basketball has changed a lot throughout the years and Carolina Basketball has been successful in all of them. The program navigated the racial integration of CBB, the end of the ban on freshman eligibility, the hardship rule that allowed players to leave before 4 years that turned into a significant number of players leaving after 2 or 3 years, the requirement that players go to college before being draft eligible and the resulting rise of the OAD players, and then even significant rule changes like the shot clock and the 3 point shot. And through all of it Carolina Basketball has been successful.

I have no desire to go back to any of those eras of CBB, I just want Carolina to make every effort to be successful in this current era of CBB with NIL and the transfer portal. We have the brand to be successful and resources that, while perhaps lagging a bit behind the very top schools, are still much greater than what most schools bring to the table. And I'd like us to be at least as successful as the resources and brand that we have.

I will support the program no matter how much immediate success we have, but supporting the program doesn't mean inherently thinking that nothing should be changed regardless of the results on the court. I watched every game I could see during 8-20 and caught all but 1 or 2 games during our losing season in 2019-2020. Carolina Basketball doesn't have to be a top 5 or 10 or even 25 team to have my support, but I also don't want us to be ok with mediocre or worse performances.
 
SnoopRob said:
I'm not expecting the old UNC or CBB back. College basketball has changed a lot throughout the years and Carolina Basketball has been successful in all of them. The program navigated the racial integration of CBB, the end of the ban on freshman eligibility, the hardship rule that allowed players to leave before 4 years that turned into a significant number of players leaving after 2 or 3 years, the requirement that players go to college before being draft eligible and the resulting rise of the OAD players, and then even significant rule changes like the shot clock and the 3 point shot. And through all of it Carolina Basketball has been successful.

I have no desire to go back to any of those eras of CBB, I just want Carolina to make every effort to be successful in this current era of CBB with NIL and the transfer portal. We have the brand to be successful and resources that, while perhaps lagging a bit behind the very top schools, are still much greater than what most schools bring to the table. And I'd like us to be at least as successful as the resources and brand that we have.

I will support the program no matter how much immediate success we have, but supporting the program doesn't mean inherently thinking that nothing should be changed regardless of the results on the court. I watched every game I could see during 8-20 and caught all but 1 or 2 games during our losing season in 2019-2020. Carolina Basketball doesn't have to be a top 5 or 10 or even 25 team to have my support, but I also don't want us to be ok with mediocre or worse performances.
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Don't get me wrong. I ain't happy. It's more that I don't want to be too quick to jettison this group of coaches while sorting out the NIL confusion. I agree that a bad record next year will be a big issue. It will finally be his team with his players. If he's still not getting it done, then we can talk.

If more like we know the problems this year. The size can't be fixed.. The shooting can. Calling out Hubert every game for the same issues just gets old.
 
Centerpiece said:
Look, Hubert's seat was warm to the touch the moment he was named head coach. Then it got hot as hell that first semester when the team wasn't doing much. Then, Hubert tweaked some stuff, some guys left the team, and then they caught fire. The team was now hot as hell and Hubert's office chair cooled off significantly. Then came K. Then came K again. Then came a 15 pt lead in the first half of the National Championship game. At that point in time it was "Live Action!" And the chair was so cold icicles were forming.

You can pretty much wash, rinse and repeat that cycle the next couple of years. Last year was an "UP" cycle - at least until the NCStateACCT game, and the Alabama loss in NCAAT. Then, all of a sudden, the good will of the first year and the 3rd year ACC regular season championship (and beating d00k 2x again and going 17-3; 29-8) - all of it - went out the window. Hubert's seat went back to warm to almost hot again in the blink of a 2 pt loss in the Sweet 16.

Then came the off-season portal issues of not getting a big to replace Mondo. BOOM! "Hubert can't coach! Hubert can't recruit!" BOOM! office chair is hot as a fire cracker once again. Now, fast forward to Jan. 2025... BOOM!

You can be a complete arse Snoop... I hadn't realized before. I almost sympathized with you when you started that thread a few months ago... "come at me! all you boyz on the old IC, I'm here! Come at me and let me explain why I moderated the way I did!" And then came those boyz, one by one... calling you an arseling... I actually took your side. But now I see it, You are an arschloch.
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I disagree that Hubert's seat has been terribly warm at any point before this season.

When he was hired (with no HC experience and without a real search), there were certainly folks who weren't happy with the hire. But I think once the hire happened, most folks got on board and knew that Hubert's success is UNC's success and want Hubert to be successful. Yes, there were complaints during the first half of his first season and certainly complaints during his second season when we missed the NCAAT. But I think most folks knew that Hubert was going to get a few years to figure things out and so his seat wasn't actually that warm and I don't think there was a real expectation by a terribly high percentage of fans that Hubert's job was actually in jeopardy. And, of course, last year was a very, very good season overall so his seat was pretty cool after last season. And while there was certainly concerns over our portal big misses coming into this year, I think most fans were hopeful that our guard talent and depth would make us a reasonably successful team despite being less-than-stellar in the post.

Now that the reality has seemingly set in that we are bubble team (again), I do agree that Hubert's seat has actually gotten warm. But that's only after we're now a bubble team for 3 out of his 4 seasons at the helm at a program that is an all-time top 3 program. And if we do miss the NCAAT this season, Hubert's seat should be blazing, as that would be two misses in 4 years for a program that only had only misseed the tourney 4 times in the preceeding 47 seasons since at-large teams were eligible for the tourney. (And 2 of those 4 were under Matt Doherty who got canned after 3 seasons.)

Carolina should not be a program where we're consistently on the bubble and certainly not one where missing the tourney should be more than an outlier performance. And, if we are, then the coach's seat should certainly be very, very warm, at a bare minimum.

As far as me being an asshole, I certainly can be. I can be snarky and sarcastic when making a point. But I'm rarely a real asshole unless someone starts shit with me first. And even then I'll typically give folks a chance to pull it back before I really respond in kind. But if someone wants to be an ass to me, I have no problem giving it back to them and more. As far as you're concerned, I have nothing against you and don't think I've said anything bad to you. If you want to consider me an asshole, go ahead as it's your opinion and you can hold whatever one you wish. It'll concern me none unless you want to act a fool about it and then I'll be glad to respond similarly to whatever you want to say.
 
finesse said:
Don't get me wrong. I ain't happy. It's more that I don't want to be too quick to jettison this group of coaches while sorting out the NIL confusion. I agree that a bad record next year will be a big issue. It will finally be his team with his players. If he's still not getting it done, then we can talk.

If more like we know the problems this year. The size can't be fixed.. The shooting can. Calling out Hubert every game for the same issues just gets old.
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I don't think it's quick to demand significant changes to a coaching staff at Carolina when we've been a bubble team 3 times in 4 seasons and we're very much in danger of missing the tournament for a second time in those 4 years. I will say that if we do manage to make the NCAAT, then Hubert should get one more year but, if we miss, then we're at a point that a coaching change likely needs to happen.

The players this year are his players with the exception of RJ. And he's had RJ for all 4 years so RJ's development has largely happened under Hubert.

The problems this year are simply greater than a lack of size or shooting. Our players aren't being put in a position to make the most of their talent and succeed. We've lost our last 2 games despite fairly good games in aggregate from our bigs. We simply don't play like a team making the most of their talent and being put in a position to succeed via hard work and good coaching.

I agree that we should probably get away from making every game a referendum on Hubert and the staff. (I had actually decided after the Louisville game that I was going to wait until roughly the end of the season before commenting much more on Hubert's future. Yeah, I failed on that one.) However, it is hard to have any in-depth discussion of the team and season outside of in-game "play-by-play" takes because, honestly, not much seems to change between games. We're a bubble team seemingly headed in the wrong direction doing the same things - right and wrong - pretty much every game. If you discuss the performance of the team with any depth between games, the talk is almost inevitably going to turn to the greater issues that many see facing the team and program.
 
SnoopRob said:
I agree that we should prioritize character. I have absolutely no argument with that.

Where we disagree is that I think we've long prioritized character and been a leading program in college basketball and I want to see us continue that combination. You're the one that posted the idea that there has to be a tradeoff between the two.

But, as a general rule, when folks trying to support a coach start hyping up how moral/ethical they are and that they "do things the right way", you can make a fairly accurate assumption that the performance on the court/field has been lacking.
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Was it with Dean? Can you give other examples?
 
Bigs23 said:
That’s where we disagree then. I don’t think Hubert is a bad basketball coach.
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And yet, when asked what you see in him/them that makes you think they're not, you only cite character, commitment, and investment. You cite nothing you see on the court. That should be telling to you.
 
stankeylegjones said:
And yet, when asked what you see in him/them that makes you think they're not, you only cite character, commitment, and investment. You cite nothing you see on the court. That should be telling to you.
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I’m really not in a position to judge in great detail Hubert Davis as a basketball coach. To do so would be incredibly vain and misguided.

I will say that his teams have done things that bad coaches don’t have happen.
 
Bigs23 said:
I’m really not in a position to judge in great detail Hubert Davis as a basketball coach. To do so would be incredibly vain and misguided.

I will say that his teams have done things that bad coaches don’t have happen.
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This last statement is simply not true.
Regarding your first statement, I just don't see how you can be convinced that this staff is the right staff for UNC basketball, when you can't identify anything on the court that stands out to you as signs.
 
Bigs23 said:
Failing coaches that people cited as having strong character.
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I think you can see it on IC with Hubert. A good number of his defenders talk about what a "good Christian man" he is, as if that has much of anything to do with his performance as a basketball coach.

Very similar story with Mack Brown. He defended his performance on the field by talking about how he was "saving lives" as a coach. When he still had defenders on IC, they made similar claims as to how much he cared for the players as a major reason to support him.

But this isn't something that's particular to Carolina. If you go to any message board where the team is struggling and the fan base is divided, you'll often see some form of "the coach is a good person/cares about his players off the court" as a reason to support the coach. And it's not that those things aren't important, but they aren't the main reason a coach is hired and they certainly are emphasized when the team's on-field performance is lacking.
 
Part of it for me, along with the whole North Carolina thing, is that his years as a popular broadcaster adds quite a bit to connect with people. I think it's less reliable than NIL money but it adds a little extra shine to his resume.

I don't know enough about coaching to judge him or his staff but I think they seem competent. I'm more interested to see what happens with the talent. Wilson is a good start. Keeping one of Jackson or Powell will be a near miracle. If I could choose, I'd pick Jackson being a more likely leader. That's a big need. Bacot wasn't the best we ever had but we might miss that more than his rebounding. (Forgive a little hyperbole)
 
SnoopRob said:
I think you can see it on IC with Hubert. A good number of his defenders talk about what a "good Christian man" he is, as if that has much of anything to do with his performance as a basketball coach.

Very similar story with Mack Brown. He defended his performance on the field by talking about how he was "saving lives" as a coach. When he still had defenders on IC, they made similar claims as to how much he cared for the players as a major reason to support him.

But this isn't something that's particular to Carolina. If you go to any message board where the team is struggling and the fan base is divided, you'll often see some form of "the coach is a good person/cares about his players off the court" as a reason to support the coach. And it's not that those things aren't important, but they aren't the main reason a coach is hired and they certainly are emphasized when the team's on-field performance is lacking.
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Not going to add to the Hubert discourse today, but Mack’s “saving lives” quip genuinely cracks me up lol. Not quite as good as Butch Jones “championship of life”, but it’s up there in the pantheon of ridiculously out of touch coaching one liners.
 
SnoopRob said:
I think you can see it on IC with Hubert. A good number of his defenders talk about what a "good Christian man" he is, as if that has much of anything to do with his performance as a basketball coach.

Very similar story with Mack Brown. He defended his performance on the field by talking about how he was "saving lives" as a coach. When he still had defenders on IC, they made similar claims as to how much he cared for the players as a major reason to support him.

But this isn't something that's particular to Carolina. If you go to any message board where the team is struggling and the fan base is divided, you'll often see some form of "the coach is a good person/cares about his players off the court" as a reason to support the coach. And it's not that those things aren't important, but they aren't the main reason a coach is hired and they certainly are emphasized when the team's on-field performance is lacking.
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Do you have any tangible examples other than Hubert Davis who is by all accounts a high character guy?
 
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