Biorhythms for Wake Forest Game, 9 pm Tip

[Bigs23]

I explained in the post why he might leave Gonzaga. And there are rumors swirling he is thinking about retirement but if he was offered the right situation to keep him at the top I think he'd take it.

If UNC can get a Few or another elite coach then yes it’s a move to make but that not very likely.

 

[LosPollosHermanos]

If UNC can get a Few or another elite coach then yes it’s a move to make but that not very likely.

Few knows he can still win the West Coast conference in the current environment but he has no hope of being in the top ten nationally without more NIL resources. I would think he is probably looking for a move unless he just wants to retire. He has obviously had many chances to leave Gonzaga for more money and never has.

 

[Bigs23]

Few knows he can still win the West Coast conference in the current environment but he has no hope of being in the top ten nationally without more NIL resources. I would think he is probably looking for a move unless he just wants to retire. He has obviously had many chances to leave Gonzaga for more money and never has.

I’m sold on Few.

Plan B?

 

[SnoopRob]

Of course you can be both.

I hope you believe he’s a better man coach since it’s obvious you think he’s a horrible coach.

I don't know Hubert personally and only have to go by what I read online.

From everything I read about him, he's a terrific human being. He's wonderful to those around him and wants to make the world a better place. He seems like someone that anyone would be lucky to know.

But that doesn't make him appropriate to be the HC at Carolina.

However, to be clear, I don't think he's a horrible basketball coach. Based on the 3.5 years of his time as HC, I'd say he's a decent coach with potential to be better. It's just that I think Carolina Basketball can and should do a lot better than "decent".

I feel bad for Hubert in a similar way that I felt bad for Matt Doherty when he was here. Both were put into a position as UNCBB HC that they simply weren't ready for, largely due to forces beyond their own control. I'm sure both felt that they needed to say yes when they were called upon and, to their respective credits, they each did so. And both are/were less-than-stellar in their performance of the position, although to Hubert's credit he's handled the stress of the position much, much better than Doh did. The part that to me is sad for each of them is that both seemingly had a great deal of potential as a HC when they were hired by UNC, but both could have used a great deal more experience outside of the pressure cooker of UNC to have reached that potential before taking over a program the level of Carolina. Of course, we don't know how life would have gone for either of them if they hadn't been made the HC at Carolina when they were, but it's not hard to imagine for either of them that learning to be a HC on a smaller stage for a longer period of time might have helped them improve in ways that could have later prepared them for a job at or near the top of CBB like Carolina.

Also, part of the reason that I'm skeptical of giving Hubert another year is because I think we're putting him largely in almost a no-win situation if we bring him back (barring a major change to the trajectory of this season). If we either make the NCAAT as a bubble team or miss the tourney altogether, it puts a ton of pressure on him next year to be very successful. Whatever would be the minimum amount of success in 2025-26 for him to remain as HC, it would be a much, much higher bar for a significant number of fans to be comfortable/happy with him as coach. So let's say he gets to come back next year and we finish 3rd in conference in the regular season against yet again a fairly mediocre ACC, go to the semifinals of the ACCT, and make the NCAAT as a 6 seed and get beat in a close game in the round of 32. Is that enough to keep his job? I'm not sure, but it's entirely possible. But is that enough to really cool his seat down considerably? Probably not. So then he's back spending another season presumably coaching for his job. I can't imagine that's a fun place to be and I'd hate to see someone like him go through that kind of crap.

Also, I think an even worse scenario is that he's brought back next year (again barring a major change to the trajectory of this season) but once we get to the middle of the summer and the best of the transfer portal have committed to schools, we are looking at a team not dissimilar to this one that has at least one major hole in it. If that happens, it's not hard to see that next season may be another rough one and I can't imagine that would be fun to live through again.

In many ways (again barring major trajectory changes for this season), unless Bubba and the donors are ready to provide significantly more resources in NIL and, probably, in terms of basketball-related staff, it feels like having Hubert come back for another year may be just setting him up for further failure.

 

[Bigs23]

I don't know Hubert personally and only have to go by what I read online.

From everything I read about him, he's a terrific human being. He's wonderful to those around him and wants to make the world a better place. He seems like someone that anyone would be lucky to know.

But that doesn't make him appropriate to be the HC at Carolina.

However, to be clear, I don't think he's a horrible basketball coach. Based on the 3.5 years of his time as HC, I'd say he's a decent coach with potential to be better. It's just that I think Carolina Basketball can and should do a lot better than "decent".

I feel bad for Hubert in a similar way that I felt bad for Matt Doherty when he was here. Both were put into a position as UNCBB HC that they simply weren't ready for, largely due to forces beyond their own control. I'm sure both felt that they needed to say yes when they were called upon and, to their respective credits, they each did so. And both are/were less-than-stellar in their performance of the position, although to Hubert's credit he's handled the stress of the position much, much better than Doh did. The part that to me is sad for each of them is that both seemingly had a great deal of potential as a HC when they were hired by UNC, but both could have used a great deal more experience outside of the pressure cooker of UNC to have reached that potential before taking over a program the level of Carolina. Of course, we don't know how life would have gone for either of them if they hadn't been made the HC at Carolina when they were, but it's not hard to imagine for either of them that learning to be a HC on a smaller stage for a longer period of time might have helped them improve in ways that could have later prepared them for a job at or near the top of CBB like Carolina.

Also, part of the reason that I'm skeptical of giving Hubert another year is because I think we're putting him largely in almost a no-win situation if we bring him back (barring a major change to the trajectory of this season). If we either make the NCAAT as a bubble team or miss the tourney altogether, it puts a ton of pressure on him next year to be very successful. Whatever would be the minimum amount of success in 2025-26 for him to remain as HC, it would be a much, much higher bar for a significant number of fans to be comfortable/happy with him as coach. So let's say he gets to come back next year and we finish 3rd in conference in the regular season against yet again a fairly mediocre ACC, go to the semifinals of the ACCT, and make the NCAAT as a 6 seed and get beat in a close game in the round of 32. Is that enough to keep his job? I'm not sure, but it's entirely possible. But is that enough to really cool his seat down considerably? Probably not. So then he's back spending another season presumably coaching for his job. I can't imagine that's a fun place to be and I'd hate to see someone like him go through that kind of crap.

Also, I think an even worse scenario is that he's brought back next year (again barring a major change to the trajectory of this season) but once we get to the middle of the summer and the best of the transfer portal have committed to schools, we are looking at a team not dissimilar to this one that has at least one major hole in it. If that happens, it's not hard to see that next season may be another rough one and I can't imagine that would be fun to live through again.

In many ways (again barring major trajectory changes for this season), unless Bubba and the donors are ready to provide significantly more resources in NIL and, probably, in terms of basketball-related staff, it feels like having Hubert come back for another year may be just setting him up for further failure.

Bringing in a new coach isn’t going to fix those problems.

There’s no guarantee the next guy does any better.

If you force out a lifer like Hubert Davis you better have a HoF level guy waiting in the wings.

 

[SnoopRob]

So who do you want as the next coach? Name your guy and don’t say Wes Miller again.

It's not my job to figure that out, that's Bubba's job.

But I'm confident that Carolina holds a good enough position within CBB that if we run a real search and offer a competitive salary + NIL package, we can get a very, very good coach to come to Chapel Hill.

 

[Bigs23]

It's not my job to figure that out, that's Bubba's job.

But I'm confident that Carolina holds a good enough position within CBB that if we run a real search and offer a competitive salary + NIL package, we can get a very, very good coach to come to Chapel Hill.

It’s also not your job to fire Coach Davis but you riff on that pretty freely!

 

[Calheel]

I don't know Hubert personally and only have to go by what I read online.

From everything I read about him, he's a terrific human being. He's wonderful to those around him and wants to make the world a better place. He seems like someone that anyone would be lucky to know.

But that doesn't make him appropriate to be the HC at Carolina.

However, to be clear, I don't think he's a horrible basketball coach. Based on the 3.5 years of his time as HC, I'd say he's a decent coach with potential to be better. It's just that I think Carolina Basketball can and should do a lot better than "decent".

I feel bad for Hubert in a similar way that I felt bad for Matt Doherty when he was here. Both were put into a position as UNCBB HC that they simply weren't ready for, largely due to forces beyond their own control. I'm sure both felt that they needed to say yes when they were called upon and, to their respective credits, they each did so. And both are/were less-than-stellar in their performance of the position, although to Hubert's credit he's handled the stress of the position much, much better than Doh did. The part that to me is sad for each of them is that both seemingly had a great deal of potential as a HC when they were hired by UNC, but both could have used a great deal more experience outside of the pressure cooker of UNC to have reached that potential before taking over a program the level of Carolina. Of course, we don't know how life would have gone for either of them if they hadn't been made the HC at Carolina when they were, but it's not hard to imagine for either of them that learning to be a HC on a smaller stage for a longer period of time might have helped them improve in ways that could have later prepared them for a job at or near the top of CBB like Carolina.

Also, part of the reason that I'm skeptical of giving Hubert another year is because I think we're putting him largely in almost a no-win situation if we bring him back (barring a major change to the trajectory of this season). If we either make the NCAAT as a bubble team or miss the tourney altogether, it puts a ton of pressure on him next year to be very successful. Whatever would be the minimum amount of success in 2025-26 for him to remain as HC, it would be a much, much higher bar for a significant number of fans to be comfortable/happy with him as coach. So let's say he gets to come back next year and we finish 3rd in conference in the regular season against yet again a fairly mediocre ACC, go to the semifinals of the ACCT, and make the NCAAT as a 6 seed and get beat in a close game in the round of 32. Is that enough to keep his job? I'm not sure, but it's entirely possible. But is that enough to really cool his seat down considerably? Probably not. So then he's back spending another season presumably coaching for his job. I can't imagine that's a fun place to be and I'd hate to see someone like him go through that kind of crap.

Also, I think an even worse scenario is that he's brought back next year (again barring a major change to the trajectory of this season) but once we get to the middle of the summer and the best of the transfer portal have committed to schools, we are looking at a team not dissimilar to this one that has at least one major hole in it. If that happens, it's not hard to see that next season may be another rough one and I can't imagine that would be fun to live through again.

In many ways (again barring major trajectory changes for this season), unless Bubba and the donors are ready to provide significantly more resources in NIL and, probably, in terms of basketball-related staff, it feels like having Hubert come back for another year may be just setting him up for further failure.

Dean Smith - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know 1965 was a different time than today, and the program Smith inherited from McGuire was not the program Davis inherited from Williams, but pretty similar points in their careers.

Lead assistant takes over from a legend. In January of his fourth season, very disappointing loss at Wake Forest. Team is playing below preseason expectations. Effigy of Smith hanging outside of Woolen.

Everything you said about Davis above could have equally applied to Smith in January 1965.

 

[SnoopRob]

I believe the biggest mistake you and others are making is thinking that a new coach would make everything all better.

I want to be clear, I don't think a new coach "would make everything all better". There is certainly risk with every hire and no one knows the outcome before the cards are played.

But I do think we can significantly raise the floor for the program regarding year-to-year consistency while also, at a minimum, keeping the likelihood of reaching our program's ceiling in place and, likely, raising the likelihood that we reach our program ceiling more often.

 

[donbosco]

I'm beginning to think that we should just terminate the men's basketball program as it is pretty clear that the job is too high pressure for anyone that is available.

We are a spoiled and impatient fan base.

 

[donbosco]

Dean Smith - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know 1965 was a different time than today, and the program Smith inherited from McGuire was not the program Davis inherited from Williams, but pretty similar points in their careers.

Lead assistant takes over from a legend. In January of his fourth season, very disappointing loss at Wake Forest. Team is playing below preseason expectations. Effigy of Smith hanging outside of Woolen.

Everything you said about Davis above could have equally applied to Smith in January 1965.

Sports Post in thread 'UNC Basketball History'

Jan 7, 2025

(Please excuse the misspelling of Tar Heels in the article from January, 1965)

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

The evening of January 6, 1965 was a dark one for 4th year Carolina basketball coach, 44-year-old Dean Smith. His Heels, led by 6-6 All American Billy Cunningham and Super-Sophomore 6-3 Bob Lewis fell to Wake Forest that day as the Wiley Bones McKinney’s Demon Deacons laid the wood on Carolina to the tune of 107-85. The loss evened UNC’s record at 6-6.

In true ‘what have you done for me lately’ fashion the insult added to the injury came in the form of an unmistakably proboscis...

• donbosco

• 

 

[superrific]

I have no real opinion worth caring about re: Hubert, but it should be noted that Dean was an exception. Most of the time, the coaches who find themselves on the hot seat in year 4 do not succeed. That it worked out for us once doesn't mean it will work out again, and there's no real nexus between Dean's situation and Hubert's.

 

[SnoopRob]

Bringing in a new coach isn’t going to fix those problems.

There’s no guarantee the next guy does any better.

If you force out a lifer like Hubert Davis you better have a HoF level guy waiting in the wings.

A new coach wouldn't come in to fix the problem of Hubert underperforming, he'd come in to fix the problem of the team underperforming. There's nothing an outside coach can do to fix a problem that center's on Hubert's performance as coach.

There may be no guarantee that the next guy does any better, but there are probabilities. And if Carolina runs a decent coach and offers a good salary + NIL package, they should be able to get a proven coach that significantly raises the probabilities that the team succeeds.

The last sentence is just bullshit. You release Hubert from the job because he's significantly underperforming and not meeting the standards of the program. The success of the next guy isn't really germane to whether or not it was right to remove the current guy unless there is significant reason to believe that the current guy has the team performing well beyond the program's general floor and closer to somewhere near the ceiling of the program. I would hope we could all agree for Carolina that the floor is being, at a minimum, a Top 25 team and non-bubble NCAA entrant on nearly an annual basis and the ceiling is somewhat fairly consistently being among the teams on the short list as true national championship contenders. By that standard, Hubert is seemngly falling well below the general floor of the program (while having done reasonably ok at getting us toward the ceiling) and so there's no reason for the unknown outcome of the next coach to be a consideration in evaluating Hubert for continued employment.

 

[BillOfRights]

We don't get better. We don't make in-game adjustments. And if we hadn't pulled two games fully out of the deep end of our colon we'd be sitting at 11-10 right now and not even on the bubble.

C'mon, do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? In how many games this season has Carolina trailed and come back because of in-game adjustments?

 

[Calheel]

I have no real opinion worth caring about re: Hubert, but it should be noted that Dean was an exception. Most of the time, the coaches who find themselves on the hot seat in year 4 do not succeed. That it worked out for us once doesn't mean it will work out again, and there's no real nexus between Dean's situation and Hubert's.

Yes, that is true.

And in today's day & age, you have way more pressure to produce or move on. You obviously can't give every coach five years.

But Hubert also ended K's career and was one wonky floor board from winning the national championship. So, he's shown some of the same potential that Dean showed in his first 3.5 years (as opposed to say a Carl Torbush or Matt Doherty, both of whom made it abundantly clear that 3 years was enough).

But I do think it is worth pointing out that you don't need to be an established coach to succeed at UNC. Both Roy and Dean had great success as a pressure cooker head coach based solely on the experience they gained as a UNC assistant coach.

 

[SnoopRob]

Dean Smith - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know 1965 was a different time than today, and the program Smith inherited from McGuire was not the program Davis inherited from Williams, but pretty similar points in their careers.

Lead assistant takes over from a legend. In January of his fourth season, very disappointing loss at Wake Forest. Team is playing below preseason expectations. Effigy of Smith hanging outside of Woolen.

Everything you said about Davis above could have equally applied to Smith in January 1965.

You're entirely correct in your last sentence.

However, very similar circumstances of very mediocre performance in Year 4 are faced by a number of coaches on an annual basis. Of the ones who are allowed to continue to Year 5, very few of them turn their programs around to have a great deal of success and far, far fewer of them go on to the kind of success that Dean Smith had starting just a couple of seasons later. Dean's turnaround of the program is a "winning the lottery" level of statistical probability.

In short, using Dean's success as a reason to keep Hubert is the equivalent of taking all the money you have in the bank and using it to play the lottery because you read a story in the paper about someone who won a substantial sum using their last few dollars. There's a possibility that the same might happen to you, but it's statistically very, very unlikely.

 

[LosPollosHermanos]

C'mon, do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? In how many games this season has Carolina trailed and come back because of in-game adjustments?

That's a fair question but how many of them did we win? I'm not sure making adjustments after you've let the team get down 20 and you're desperate means much.

 

[Bigs23]

A new coach wouldn't come in to fix the problem of Hubert underperforming, he'd come in to fix the problem of the team underperforming. There's nothing an outside coach can do to fix a problem that center's on Hubert's performance as coach.

There may be no guarantee that the next guy does any better, but there are probabilities. And if Carolina runs a decent coach and offers a good salary + NIL package, they should be able to get a proven coach that significantly raises the probabilities that the team succeeds.

The last sentence is just bullshit. You release Hubert from the job because he's significantly underperforming and not meeting the standards of the program. The success of the next guy isn't really germane to whether or not it was right to remove the current guy unless there is significant reason to believe that the current guy has the team performing well beyond the program's general floor and closer to somewhere near the ceiling of the program. I would hope we could all agree for Carolina that the floor is being, at a minimum, a Top 25 team and non-bubble NCAA entrant on nearly an annual basis and the ceiling is somewhat fairly consistently being among the teams on the short list as true national championship contenders. By that standard, Hubert is seemngly falling well below the general floor of the program (while having done reasonably ok at getting us toward the ceiling) and so there's no reason for the unknown outcome of the next coach to be a consideration in evaluating Hubert for continued employment.

You’re convinced the problem is Davis I’m not there yet. There’s really not much more to discuss at this time.

 

[stankeylegjones]

He hasn’t missed the tournament this year or next year yet.

If that were to happen I’d expect Hubert to resign.

If he did miss it this year and didn't resign, do you think he should be fired?

 

[Bigs23]

I have no real opinion worth caring about re: Hubert, but it should be noted that Dean was an exception. Most of the time, the coaches who find themselves on the hot seat in year 4 do not succeed. That it worked out for us once doesn't mean it will work out again, and there's no real nexus between Dean's situation and Hubert's.

Coach K was like 5 games over .500 his first 4 seasons at dook and had 2 losing seasons among those.