DOGE Catch-All

[ChileG]

It is reporting these things because SS's backend is written in a programming language that doesn't have a date field.

Musk first made the claims during his Oval Office press conference last week, when he claimed that a “cursory examination of Social Security, and we got people in there that are 150 years old. Now, do you know anyone that's 150? I don't know. They should be in the Guinness Book of World Records … So that's a case where I think they're probably dead.”

While no evidence was produced to back up this claim, it was picked up by right-wing commentators online, primarily on Musk’s own X platform, as well as being reported credibly by pro-Trump media outlets.

Computer programmers quickly claimed that the 150 figure was not evidence of fraud but rather the result of a weird quirk of the Social Security Administration’s benefits system, which was largely written in COBOL, a 60-year-old programming language that undergirds SSA’s databases as well as systems from many other US government agencies.

COBOL is rarely used today, and as such, Musk’s cadre of young engineers may well be unfamiliar with it.

Because COBOL does not have a date type, some implementations rely instead on a system whereby all dates are coded to a reference point. The most commonly used is May 20, 1875, as this was the date of an international standards-setting conference held in Paris, known as the Convention du Mètre.

No, 150-Year-Olds Aren’t Collecting Social Security Benefits

Elon Musk claims to have found rampant fraud in the Social Security Administration. There’s a much simpler explanation.

www.wired.com

Your first sentence that you copied and pasted says exactly what I am saying…”Musk first made these claims…”

The only reason we are having this conversation is because Musk once again misrepresented the data, either because he didn’t understand it, didn’t care to understand it because that isn’t really the goal, or lied.
They originally used this so-called “quirk” to imply (and later stated directly by Trump and others) that there is massive fraud happening with social security. They are using these claims now to threaten cuts.

And all your bolded text doesn’t show there is anything wrong or broken in the system. Just that it is a legacy system that has been around a long time.

 

[ZenMode]

1. It's not just legacy systems. The systems I designed had unused flags. The systems others designed had unused flags. My friend has been working with databases his whole life; he sees unused flags.

2. I thought I explained this already, but I'll take another stab. I'll use an analogy to help you out.

A. Suppose you're buying some land and you're planning to turn it into a farm. It costs money to acquire the land, erect fencing, get permits, etc. So, at the outset, you want to estimate the amount of land you think you will be farming and buy at least that much. But you will also want to buy a bit extra to allow yourself some expansion opportunities, because it's cheaper to buy a bit of extra land than to replace your fencing if you need more room.

In databases, the same principle is followed. You want to allocate the disk and memory space at the outset, and you give yourself a buffer in case you need more. Often these buffers take the form of unused data columns that might be used later -- or, as you've undoubtedly seen the phrase, "reserved for future use."

B. Now, suppose on your farm, there's a pocket of land that isn't useful. Let's say you planted trees for tree fruit, but the market for tree fruit has collapsed in your area. Maybe the climate has changed and the fruit is now low quality. Anyway, you've got this hole in your farm. Do you: a) leave everything where it is? or b) uproot all of your other crops and "slide them down" to make sure that there isn't a gap in there?

In databases, it's the same. If you find that a column isn't helpful for whatever reason, you don't eliminate it. Eliminating a column from a database is extremely inefficient. In most RDMS, there's not even a command to do it. You have to create a new table without the column, copy all the records from the original table into it, then delete the original table, and then move the new table back to where the original table was. Nobody does this, because it makes no sense. It's a huge amount of work that risks errors, when there's nothing wrong with having a database column go unused.

Does this make sense to you? Or do you need me to explain it like I did my ten year old when I started teaching him databases last year?

"Does this make sense to you? Or do you need me to explain it like I did my ten year old when I started teaching him databases last year?"

I see you graduated from the @finesse College of Being Prick.

 

[finesse]

"Does this make sense to you? Or do you need me to explain it like I did my ten year old when I started teaching him databases last year?"

I see you graduated from the @finesse College of Being Prick.

You're getting these benefits the Smith Barney way.

 

[ZenMode]

Your first sentence that you copied and pasted says exactly what I am saying…”Musk first made these claims…”

The only reason we are having this conversation is because Musk once again misrepresented the data, either because he didn’t understand it, didn’t care to understand it because that isn’t really the goal, or lied.
They originally used this so-called “quirk” to imply (and later stated directly by Trump and others) to claim there is massive fraud happening with social security and are threatening cuts.

And all your bolded text doesn’t show there is anything wrong or broken in the system. Just that it is a legacy system that has been around a long time.

Again, what Trump or Elon said is beside the point. There is something wrong with their system regardless of whether or not every person is correctly being paid.

If my employer had a flaw in their backend system, that showed an extra zero at the end of each payroll payment ($4000 showed as $40000), but each person got paid the correct ($4000) amount, that would not negate the clear issue with the system/data/reporting.

When your system shows you paying money to tens of millions of dead people, that is, in itself, an issue.

 

[superrific]

"Does this make sense to you? Or do you need me to explain it like I did my ten year old when I started teaching him databases last year?"

I see you graduated from the @finesse College of Being Prick.

But seriously. It has been explained. Then you just repeated the same nonsense claim. Here's an idea: stop talking shit you know nothing about.

I won't apologize for calling out and correcting ignorance, misinformation and/or untruth. In fact, I'm quite proud of my ability to contribute to our collective understanding of the world around us. I don't play favorites: hell, sometimes I even have to correct myself because I make mistakes.

Anyway, regardless of my style, does the explanation make sense to you?

 

[superrific]

When your system shows you paying money to tens of millions of dead people, that is, in itself, an issue.

It doesn't show anything of the sort.

 

[ChileG]

When your system shows you paying money to tens of millions of dead people, that is, in itself, an issue.

The system is not “showing” that.

 

[superrific]

It is reporting these things because SS's backend is written in a programming language that doesn't have a date field.
Because COBOL does not have a date type, some implementations rely instead on a system whereby all dates are coded to a reference point. The most commonly used is May 20, 1875, as this was the date of an international standards-setting conference held in Paris, known as the Convention du Mètre.

No, 150-Year-Olds Aren’t Collecting Social Security Benefits

Elon Musk claims to have found rampant fraud in the Social Security Administration. There’s a much simpler explanation.

www.wired.com

C also does not have a date field. Python does not have a date field natively. Programming languages that do have date fields implement them in the same way: as integers that get converted to a different visual representation by the code.

Recording dates and times as the number of days/hours/seconds/milliseconds after some recognized reference time is the most efficient way of doing it. By far.

 

[ZenMode]

But seriously. It has been explained. Then you just repeated the same nonsense claim. Here's an idea: stop talking shit you know nothing about.

I won't apologize for calling out and correcting ignorance, misinformation and/or untruth. In fact, I'm quite proud of my ability to contribute to our collective understanding of the world around us. I don't play favorites: hell, sometimes I even have to correct myself because I make mistakes.

Anyway, regardless of my style, does the explanation make sense to you?

 

[Enigma94]

We've gone from recreational contrarianism to pedantic contrarianism. Everyone knows what Trump and Elon are saying, but the pedantic contrarian must parse it out to the point of gaslighting.

 

[superrific]

When someone teaches me something, I'm appreciative. It makes me more knowledgeable. I don't tell them to fuck off. In what might just be a coincidence, but might not be, I know lots of things. More than the average poster, that's for sure.

There's no shame in learning from a professional, or somebody highly knowledgeable for other reasons. I've learned a lot about Central America over the years from CRHeel. I don't take anything he says as gospel truth (unless it's about his own life), and he doesn't present it as such. But I know more than I did and more than I would without conversations with him. At no point does it make me feel insecure.

 

[Callatoroy]

When someone teaches me something, I'm appreciative. It makes me more knowledgeable. I don't tell them to fuck off. In what might just be a coincidence, but might not be, I know lots of things. More than the average poster, that's for sure.

There's no shame in learning from a professional, or somebody highly knowledgeable for other reasons. I've learned a lot about Central America over the years from CRHeel. I don't take anything he says as gospel truth (unless it's about his own life), and he doesn't present it as such. But I know more than I did and more than I would without conversations with him. At no point does it make me feel insecure.

What can you teach me about pizza dough?

 

[kickazzz2000]

Again, what Trump or Elon said is beside the point. There is something wrong with their system regardless of whether or not every person is correctly being paid.

If my employer had a flaw in their backend system, that showed an extra zero at the end of each payroll payment ($4000 showed as $40000), but each person got paid the correct ($4000) amount, that would not negate the clear issue with the system/data/reporting.

When your system shows you paying money to tens of millions of dead people, that is, in itself, an issue.

Oh for fucks sake

 

[ZenMode]

When someone teaches me something, I'm appreciative. It makes me more knowledgeable. I don't tell them to fuck off. In what might just be a coincidence, but might not be, I know lots of things. More than the average poster, that's for sure.

There's no shame in learning from a professional, or somebody highly knowledgeable for other reasons. I've learned a lot about Central America over the years from CRHeel. I don't take anything he says as gospel truth (unless it's about his own life), and he doesn't present it as such. But I know more than I did and more than I would without conversations with him. At no point does it make me feel insecure.

To clarify, my response was related to your approach and nothing more. It's easy for the person being a prick to say "regardless of my approach", and for some people that might work. I am generally not one of those people. However, while I almost entirely ignore finesse for being a prick, I continue to engage with you because you do sometimes provide valuable information and, most importantly, you've mentioned that there are extenuating circumstances that contribute to you sometimes being a condescending ass.

 

[CeruleanBlueHeel]

C also does not have a date field. Python does not have a date field natively. Programming languages that do have date fields implement them in the same way: as integers that get converted to a different visual representation by the code.

Recording dates and times as the number of days/hours/seconds/milliseconds after some recognized reference time is the most efficient way of doing it. By far.

Exactly. It's nothing more than legacy data within a legacy system with some data fields defaulting to value when no value is present. I'm an ex-programmer and database guy and I see this kind of thing all the effing time. To jump to a conclusion that this constitutes payments being disbursed to non-existent living people is beyond ludicrous and sensationalizing data that is less than pristine.

 

[superrific]

To clarify, my response was related to your approach and nothing more. It's easy for the person being a prick to say "regardless of my approach", and for some people that might work. I am generally not one of those people. However, while I almost entirely ignore finesse for being a prick, I continue to engage with you because you do sometimes provide valuable information and, most importantly, you've mentioned that there are extenuating circumstances that contribute to you sometimes being a condescending ass.

1. How would you characterize your own conduct? Are you perfectly noble here? Or maybe people see you as a bit of a prick, due to your insistence on staking out strong opinions based on nothing at all? And then clinging to them and moving the goalposts when people try to explain it to you?

I wouldn't have to say things like "do I have to explain it more simply" if you would make an effort to get it the first time. Or maybe you do get it, but you won't acknowledge it in your posts.

2. Personally, I just can't understand your mentality. I would be mortally embarrassed to talk out of my ass on a regular basis. I have, on very rare occasions, spoken with confidence outside my area of knowledge. It embarrasses me, and I quickly retract and correct. It's not about being called out. It's about my own personal integrity. It's about being able to walk with my head high. I don't know -- maybe that's just me. I'm just saying that I completely fail to comprehend your motivations or style.

3. I admit that I'm fighting a bit of a proxy war on this board. You are not the problem the country faces. It's the millions of people who think and act like you that are the problem. It's how we get such an obvious idiot blowhard confabulist as the leader of the free world. Well, not any more. The US president is no longer a leader. But of course I can't do anything about the millions. I can only address what is in front of me.

Yes, I am considerably more frustrated with the bullshit when our president is destroying the government because he and his supporters believe in mounds and mounds of manure. That's why I fight over databases. It's not really important -- but for that same reason, why do you pick a fight about them? If people don't stand up to the bullshit -- and I address you as bullshit consumer (who should stand up) and producer (to whom we should stand up) -- then we get a government run by bullshit. It's a very bad development.

 

[ZenMode]

1. How would you characterize your own conduct? Are you perfectly noble here? Or maybe people see you as a bit of a prick, due to your insistence on staking out strong opinions based on nothing at all? And then clinging to them and moving the goalposts when people try to explain it to you?

Regardless of anything else, I leave personal attacks out of the equation unless someone personally attacks me.

I wouldn't have to say things like "do I have to explain it more simply" if you would make an effort to get it the first time. Or maybe you do get it, but you won't acknowledge it in your posts.

Stating what is technically correct doesn't always a) apply to the discussion or b) change an opinion. For example, my opinion is that there is something wrong with the SS system since it's reporting that people who can't possibly be alive are receiving benefits. You wrote a very long, and probably technically correct, post about programming languages..... a post that, despite likely being technically accurate, changed nothing as far as the reality of the SS system because the system is STILL reporting that millions of people, way past any medically possible age, are receiving benefits.

2. Personally, I just can't understand your mentality. I would be mortally embarrassed to talk out of my ass on a regular basis. I have, on very rare occasions, spoken with confidence outside my area of knowledge. It embarrasses me, and I quickly retract and correct. It's not about being called out. It's about my own personal integrity. It's about being able to walk with my head high. I don't know -- maybe that's just me. I'm just saying that I completely fail to comprehend your motivations or style.

I don't know what you want me to say. The SS database is reporting things that are impossible by today's medical standards. Do you want me to ignore that because you know more about programming languages than I do?

3. I admit that I'm fighting a bit of a proxy war on this board. You are not the problem the country faces. It's the millions of people who think and act like you that are the problem. It's how we get such an obvious idiot blowhard confabulist as the leader of the free world. Well, not any more. The US president is no longer a leader. But of course I can't do anything about the millions. I can only address what is in front of me.

Yes, I am considerably more frustrated with the bullshit when our president is destroying the government because he and his supporters believe in mounds and mounds of manure. That's why I fight over databases. It's not really important -- but for that same reason, why do you pick a fight about them? If people don't stand up to the bullshit -- and I address you as bullshit consumer (who should stand up) and producer (to whom we should stand up) -- then we get a government run by bullshit. It's a very bad development.

The issue that people have with me is that I don't neatly align with either political party's views and I don't share in the panic that seems to consume both the right and left. I can't make myself feel panicked because Trump is president any more than a Democrat can make themselves not feel panicked because Trump is president.

 

[ChileG]

ZenMode - what do you mean the database is “reporting” that dead people are receiving benefits.

Can you explain what you mean by “reporting?”

 

[superrific]

Regardless of anything else, I leave personal attacks out of the equation unless someone personally attacks me.

Stating what is technically correct doesn't always a) apply to the discussion or b) change an opinion. For example, my opinion is that there is something wrong with the SS system since it's reporting that people who can't possibly be alive are receiving benefits. You wrote a very long, and probably technically correct, post about programming languages..... a post that, despite likely being technically accurate, changed nothing as far as the reality of the SS system because the system is STILL reporting that millions of people, way past any medically possible age, are receiving benefits.

I don't know what you want me to say. The SS database is reporting things that are impossible by today's medical standards. Do you want me to ignore that because you know more about programming languages than I do?

The issue that people have with me is that I don't neatly align with either political party's views and I don't share in the panic that seems to consume both the right and left. I can't make myself feel panicked because Trump is president any more than a Democrat can make themselves not feel panicked because Trump is president.

1. The SS database is not in fact "reporting" any such thing. In fact, databases don't "report" anything. They store data. In your word processing program, there's a database of all valid English words, which is what it uses to spell check. The database is just the list of words. The spell checker uses that data, according to its own programming, to do its job.

That's why not using a database column is immaterial. If there's a database column full of junk, don't use it. There's no law that says it has to be used. And that's the right approach -- or at least the approach used virtually all of the time in industry -- because correcting the data is incredibly time consuming for no benefit.

2. So this is a great example of what I'm talking about. You're saying that what I wrote changes nothing about the reality . . . but you say that only because you don't understand the actual reality. You think the database does things that it does not do. If there are benefits being paid to dead people (there aren't), you don't fix that in the database. You fix it in the program you wrote that pulls data and makes decisions.

I'm obviously way more knowledgeable about this topic than you are, and I'm not a silly person. So if I write a long post explaining the situation, maybe you could ask yourself the following question: "if what super wrote is irrelevant, why would he write it? " And the answer should be, "hmm, maybe I'm not understanding what is and isn't relevant. Maybe I should ask some questions." When you say "what you wrote doesn't matter" you're insulting me. You're telling me that I can't even figure out the relevant principles, which is infuriating when the problem is that you don't know enough to understand the basics.

3. The issue that people have with you has nothing to do with your political alignment. Well, that's not my issue with you at least. My issue is that you form and then express opinions that have no basis in reality, because you don't understand how that reality works. That's not true of you 100% of the time, but it's true an alarmingly high percentage.

So you start taking positions -- right, left, center, contrary, whatever -- that are fundamentally incorrect, and you don't even know enough to see why or how they are incorrect. Too You don't advance conversations. You're not a knowledge source; you're a knowledge sink, except you don't even absorb the knowledge being imparted to you.

Imagine you're watching a football game with someone who really doesn't know much about the sport at all. S/he says, "why are the coaches so stupid? They should put all the linemen out to the side, snap the ball, throw it out to a WR and let the line block for the receiver on the outside." You say, it doesn't work like that. And your friend insists that it would be a great idea because it makes sense to them. Then you explain legal and illegal formations, and it makes no difference. You explain that the QB would be under immediate pressure, and the pass to the WR can be easily intercepted by a DB at the line of scrimmage sprinting into the backfield. And yet the person continues to insist that there's a good idea in there.

Wouldn't you find that incredibly frustrating?

 

[nycfan]

IRS Begins to Fire 6,000 Workers, Threatening Tax-Season Delays​

Some collections and audits are likely to be paused, and one-on-one personal service is set to be more limited​

https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/irs-workers-fired-tax-season-doge-102fbecb?mod=mhp

“… A termination memo sent Thursday to IRS employees read: “Your continued employment at the Agency is not in the public interest.” The email said employees would be removed from their positions on Thursday.

The agency is set to lay off at least 6,000 people from its roughly 100,000-strong workforce. Already, the IRS was struggling with recruitment and retention. The layoffs, which are mostly in the compliance division, mean some collections and audits are likely to be paused, and one-on-one personal service is set to be more limited.

“Patience is going to be a virtue,” said Tom O’Saben, director of government relations at the National Association of Tax Professionals. Still, most people who file electronically and choose direct deposit aren’t likely to be affected.

The cuts aren’t expected to include workers essential to the filing season. The administration also limited its deferred-resignation program at the IRS, telling workers involved in running the filing season that they couldn’t stop working until May 15. More cuts could come after that date.

IRS employees were asked to come into the office Thursday and hand in government-issued equipment, agency access cards, travel cards and parking permits. Some lost access to their emails and couldn’t receive termination notices, according to a text-message chain that included an IRS official.

Some were informed that access was revoked because of an IT issue, and not necessarily related to firings, that person said. …