GOP & Policies toward/treatment of Transgender & other LGBTQ Americans

[StrangePackage]

You are confusing them. Empathy does not cause reason to go down the drain. Empathy is a mode of reason. It's a way of reasoning about subjective and/or phenomenological experience. The opposite of empathy is hegemony.

It's quite simple: you can't reason to your way to good policy if you don't know what that policy is supposed to accomplish. You cannot understand the goals of policy without empathy. Hegemony is not a mode of democracy. It is usually not reasonable (which is why it has to be hegemonic).

I'm not arguing with you about this. Once again, this is a topic I know well and you've never thought about except in slogans. Funny how our dynamics keep coming back to this.

And you can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into.

Zen didn't come to his beliefs after thought and reflection. He just hates women and queers.

 

[ZenMode]

You are confusing them.

I'm not.

Empathy does not cause reason to go down the drain. Empathy is a mode of reason. It's a way of reasoning about subjective and/or phenomenological experience. The opposite of empathy is hegemony.

Empathy doesn't always cause reason to go down the drain. Empathy is about feelings. Feelings are not reason.

It's quite simple: you can't reason to your way to good policy if you don't know what that policy is supposed to accomplish.

What a policy is supposed to accomplish shouldn't be about feelings

You cannot understand the goals of policy without empathy.

That's silly. Of course you can.

Hegemony is not a mode of democracy. It is usually not reasonable (which is why it has to be hegemonic).

I'm not endorsing hegemony, nor do I think hegemony is the opposite of empathy.

I'm not arguing with you about this.

Ok.

Once again, this is a topic I know well and you've never thought about except in slogans.

Wrong.

Funny how our dynamics keep coming back to this.

That's your POV.

 

[UNCatTech]

And you can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into.

Zen didn't come to his beliefs after thought and reflection. He just hates women and queers.

He and Silence are just bad people.

They refuse to accept that their are wrong and that this isn't binary.
They refuse to understand the phycology of sports and participation in group activities.
They believe the bullshit that the worst man is better and stronger than all women, otherwise their narrative of protection doesn't equate.
They lie and claim to be protecting women, but on other threads they want women to lose rights.

They are simply bad people.

And silence is worse because he has often expressed the personal joy he gets from others' suffering and hardships.

They don't understand empathy because they have none.

They are sociopathic.

 

[ZenMode]

And you can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into.

Zen didn't come to his beliefs after thought and reflection. He just hates women and queers.

^^^^^Attacking the messenger when you can't attack the message.^^^^

 

[StrangePackage]

^^^^^Attacking the messenger when you can't attack the message.^^^^

Transphobia, homophobia, and misogyny don't require rebuttals - they are per se invalid.

 

[superrific]

What a policy is supposed to accomplish shouldn't be about feelings

To the contrary, policy is all about feelings. What is the purpose of policy? It's to promote the common good, to use a simplistic term. The common good is usually defined in terms of happiness, at least in part, and happiness is a feeling. You literally cannot understand the ends of policy without empathy. Otherwise you just create a weird sterile robot society.

 

[ZenMode]

To the contrary, policy is all about feelings. What is the purpose of policy? It's to promote the common good, to use a simplistic term. The common good is usually defined in terms of happiness, at least in part, and happiness is a feeling. You literally cannot understand the ends of policy without empathy. Otherwise you just create a weird sterile robot society.

Policy should be based on what is the right thing to do, not what feels good to do.

In this case, the right thing to do is to keep males out of female sports because they have an unfair competitive advantage.

Again, this, The unfair competitive advantage that males have over females, has been known for a very long time. It's when we start incorporating feelings, AKA empathizing, that we start ignoring what is right and doing what makes us feel good.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

Remember when Zen first started posting here how he initially tried to present himself as a reasonable and moderate and objective poster? LOL. Those days are definitely gone.

 

[ZenMode]

Remember when Zen first started posting here how he initially tried to present himself as a reasonable and centrist and objective poster? LOL. Those days are definitely gone.

I think you're confusing centrist with leftist. I support everyone's right to live their life however they please. If you want to change your gender every day, go for it. If you're a male with a footlong beard and want to wear a sundress to church, I couldn't care less. If you want to marry somebody that is the same sex as you, go for it. If you want to marry two somebodies, one that is the same sex as you and one that isn't, I'm fine with that.

If being a centrist means that you ignore science, what's actually right and wrong and make decisions based on feelings, but feelings of only one group involved, then I'm not on board.

 

[farce©]

Everybody thinks they are a centrist.

 

[Calheel]

In this case, the right thing to do is to keep males out of female sports because they have an unfair competitive advantage.

Any room for nuance in your position? For example, are you ok with mixed gender in some sports? Is there a level where you would be OK with mixed gender, for example elementary, junior high or high school? Are you OK with biological females competing on male teams?

 

[Healing]

Everybody thinks they are a centrist.

Disagree. Every contrarian thinks they’re a centrist.

 

[ZenMode]

Any room for nuance in your position? For example, are you ok with mixed gender in some sports? Is there a level where you would be OK with mixed gender, for example elementary, junior high or high school? Are you OK with biological females competing on male teams?

I think girls can play in boy's sports as long as they can. I'm fine with pre-pubescent kids playing together.

I'm not even totally opposed to males playing in female sports with sufficient hormone treatment. I think more research needs to be done on that. My guess is that will be the eventual compromise.

 

[Calheel]

I think girls can play in boy's sports as long as they can. I'm fine with pre-pubescent kids playing together.

I'm not even totally opposed to males playing in female sports with sufficient hormone treatment. I think more research needs to be done on that. My guess is that will be the eventual compromise.

But aren’t you opposed to hormone treatment for minors? Or is that someone else?

So prepubescent would be before middle school, right? You don’t want boys in girls sports once they get older than 11?

 

[ZenMode]

But aren’t you opposed to hormone treatment for minors? Or is that someone else?

So prepubescent would be before middle school, right? You don’t want boys in girls sports once they get older than 11?

I am against it. I was talking more 'in theory' or college.

There's a current age where schools/sports leagues separate kids. That seems to work.

 

[akillesheel]

I'm not even totally opposed to males playing in female sports with sufficient hormone treatment. I think more research needs to be done on that. My guess is that will be the eventual compromise.

It may shock you to know that this was pretty unproblematically what was done until the culture war right decided that trans people would be their next targets. The Olympics asked trans women to submit blood test results showing that their testosterone levels were at less than 15 ng/dL (well below the top end of normal for cis women, especially athletes) before they were allowed to compete. If every professional league adhered to this standard, trans people and those who support them would not have any problems.

I am against it. I was talking more 'in theory' or college.

There's a current age where schools/sports leagues separate kids. That seems to work.

Based on the fact that we're having this conversation, it very clearly does not work. What do you think the goals of youth sports are? Why do they exist?

 

[finesse]

It may shock you to know that this was pretty unproblematically what was done until the culture war right decided that trans people would be their next targets. The Olympics asked trans women to submit blood test results showing that their testosterone levels were at less than 15 ng/dL (well below the top end of normal for cis women, especially athletes) before they were allowed to compete. If every professional league adhered to this standard, trans people and those who support them would not have any problems.

Based on the fact that we're having this conversation, it very clearly does not work. What do you think the goals of youth sports are? Why do they exist?

To give ephebophiles something to do outside.

 

[ZenMode]

It may shock you to know that this was pretty unproblematically what was done until the culture war right decided that trans people would be their next targets. The Olympics asked trans women to submit blood test results showing that their testosterone levels were at less than 15 ng/dL (well below the top end of normal for cis women, especially athletes) before they were allowed to compete. If every professional league adhered to this standard, trans people and those who support them would not have any problems.

My primary concern is public schools and universities. Private entities can do as they please and deal with any consequences.

Based on the fact that we're having this conversation, it very clearly does not work.

My kids played sports, either through the city, private businesses or through public schools, as late as 8th grade I believe, and I don't recall having any issue with how boys and girls were/weren't combined.

This conversation is about allowing older males to play in female sports after they would have already been separated in the normal progression

What do you think the goals of youth sports are? Why do they exist?

Depends a lot on where you draw the line for "youth", but there are varying goals depending on age and experience.

 

[akillesheel]

Depends a lot on where you draw the line for "youth", but there are varying goals depending on age and experience.

draw the line, then, and then explain.

 

[hedge]

My primary concern is public schools and universities. Private entities can do as they please and deal with any consequences.

Why do you draw the line there? If you're worried about the ostensible harm done to female athletes by trans athletes in public schools, why wouldn't that extend to private entities?