GOP & Policies toward/treatment of Transgender & other LGBTQ Americans

[superrific]

That doesn't change the point that empathy tends to disregard reason

How would you know, since you possess neither?

Empathy is the foundation of reason in human interactions. Consider a military leader, a quintessentially rational position. The leader is trying to rally troops that have taken huge losses in battle, have had to retreat to possibly terrible positions, and are exhausted. Is a speech about putting nation first really going to inspire them in that moment? Of course not. The leader has to understand how the rank and file are feeling; how to reach them in their times of difficulty; and get them to believe that they can turn it around.

You're just confusing sympathy and empathy. Remember: sympathy is feeling bad for someone. Empathy is feeling what they are feeling. Empathy requires rationality.

 

[ZenMode]

a) if it's bullshit, show me the work. women were siloed into their own sports communities separate from men to a) make sure that as sports gained cross-gender popularity, women wouldn't sacrifice attractiveness for athleticism, and b) to shield men from the possibility of losing to women. different sports historians have different ideas of how much each of those factors contributed, but they were both there. there's nothing about safety.

If you are saying that there was ever a time when women's opportunities in sports were restricted by misogyny, I would agree. Women were supposed to stay in the kitchen, take care of the kids, were too fragile, etc.

b) if it's a strawman, then what is your argument? we can throw out fairness, because you haven't been able to show why the competitive advantage supposedly conferred by "maleness" is uniquely unfair compared to that conferred by genetically superior height, build, lactic acid processing ability, or any host of things that make elite athletes elite (also, when have sports ever adhered to a definition of "fair" that means everybody has an equal chance of winning?). you say "biology," but you're arguing exactly the opposite of the scientific consensus of biologists, geneticists, and doctors, so that's out. what's left?

Yes, biology shows that males and females are significantly different in ways that are extremely relevant in athletic sports. Among other things males, in general, have 40-60% more muscle mass than females.

There's nothing keeping women out of men's sports TODAY other than they simply can't compete at increasingly higher levels. Sure, you'll occasionally see a girl as a kicker on a HS football team but that's it.

 

[StrangePackage]

 

[ZenMode]

How would you know, since you possess neither?

(Intentionally ignored)

Empathy is the foundation of reason in human interactions. Consider a military leader, a quintessentially rational position. The leader is trying to rally troops that have taken huge losses in battle, have had to retreat to possibly terrible positions, and are exhausted. Is a speech about putting nation first really going to inspire them in that moment? Of course not. The leader has to understand how the rank and file are feeling; how to reach them in their times of difficulty; and get them to believe that they can turn it around.

Yes, empathy has usefulness in human interactions. For example, your wife may want you to empathize with her when she's had a bad day. A head Coach may inspire his players by empathizing with the situation they are in.

You're just confusing sympathy and empathy.

I'm not confusing sympathy and empathy.

Remember: sympathy is feeling bad for someone. Empathy is feeling what they are feeling. Empathy requires rationality.

Yes, and when you put yourself in a position where you aren't just sympathizing, but are literally feeling their feelings, that is where reason tends to go down the drain. As it relates to trans women, YOU feel rejected, YOU feel left out, YOU feel like you aren't truly a woman and it makes YOU sad, and who wants to feel those things? Nobody, of course, so let's just allow males play in female sports because it makes US feel better.

Look back at this entire thread. All of the reasons given for allowing males and girls sports are related to feelings, not reason.

 

[finesse]

(Intentionally ignored)

Yes, empathy has usefulness in human interactions. For example, your wife may want you to empathize with her when she's had a bad day. A head Coach may inspire his players by empathizing with the situation they are in.

I'm not confusing sympathy and empathy.



Yes, and when you put yourself in a position where you aren't just sympathizing, but are literally feeling their feelings, that is where reason tends to go down the drain. As it relates to trans women, YOU feel rejected, YOU feel left out, YOU feel like you aren't truly a woman and it makes YOU sad, and who wants to feel those things? Nobody, of course, so let's just allow males play in female sports because it makes US feel better.

Look back at this entire thread. All of the reasons given for allowing males and girls sports are related to feelings, not reason.

 

[akillesheel]

If you are saying that there was ever a time when women's opportunities and sports were restricted by misogyny, I would agree. Women were supposed to stay in the kitchen, take care of the kids, were too fragile, etc.

Yes, biology shows that males and females are significantly different in ways that are extremely relevant in athletic sports. Males, in general, have 40-60% more muscle mass than females.

There's nothing keeping women out of men's sports other than they simply can't compete at increasingly higher levels. Sure, you'll occasionally see a girl as a kicker on a HS football team but that's it.

almost nobody is arguing that those biological differences don't exist. rather, i'm saying they are not any more insurmountable than the biological differences that differentiate a WNBA player from a woman whose basketball career ends after high school, which you have yet to refute other than pointing to an invisible moving target of "fairness." was it fair, for example, that zion williamson was playing against high schoolers half his size who probably haven't touched a basketball in close to a decade? don't bother answering, because you've been asked this question or a variation on it about 50 times and haven't come up with an answer.

"nothing keeping women out of men's sports?" maybe it's your intentional lack of empathy, but you can't see what might happen if a woman joined a professional men's league? Katie Hnida was raped by a teammate and thrown under the bus by her coach. Sarah Fuller got death threats and her house got swatted. There are a whole bunch of social reasons a capable woman wouldn't want to join men's sports, and they intersect with the prosocial and homosocial reasons that trans people should be playing and competing with people who share their gender.

 

[superrific]

I'm not confusing sympathy and empathy.

Yes, and when you put yourself in a position where you aren't just sympathizing, but are literally feeling their feelings, that is where reason tends to go down the drain. As it relates to trans women, YOU feel rejected, YOU feel left out, YOU feel like you aren't truly a woman and it makes YOU sad, and who wants to feel those things? Nobody, of course, so let's just allow males play in female sports because it makes US feel better.

Look back at this entire thread. All of the reasons given for allowing males and girls sports are related to feelings, not reason.

You are confusing them. Empathy does not cause reason to go down the drain. Empathy is a mode of reason. It's a way of reasoning about subjective and/or phenomenological experience. The opposite of empathy is hegemony.

It's quite simple: you can't reason to your way to good policy if you don't know what that policy is supposed to accomplish. You cannot understand the goals of policy without empathy. Hegemony is not a mode of democracy. It is usually not reasonable (which is why it has to be hegemonic).

I'm not arguing with you about this. Once again, this is a topic I know well and you've never thought about except in slogans. Funny how our dynamics keep coming back to this.

 

[StrangePackage]

You are confusing them. Empathy does not cause reason to go down the drain. Empathy is a mode of reason. It's a way of reasoning about subjective and/or phenomenological experience. The opposite of empathy is hegemony.

It's quite simple: you can't reason to your way to good policy if you don't know what that policy is supposed to accomplish. You cannot understand the goals of policy without empathy. Hegemony is not a mode of democracy. It is usually not reasonable (which is why it has to be hegemonic).

I'm not arguing with you about this. Once again, this is a topic I know well and you've never thought about except in slogans. Funny how our dynamics keep coming back to this.

And you can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into.

Zen didn't come to his beliefs after thought and reflection. He just hates women and queers.

 

[ZenMode]

You are confusing them.

I'm not.

Empathy does not cause reason to go down the drain. Empathy is a mode of reason. It's a way of reasoning about subjective and/or phenomenological experience. The opposite of empathy is hegemony.

Empathy doesn't always cause reason to go down the drain. Empathy is about feelings. Feelings are not reason.

It's quite simple: you can't reason to your way to good policy if you don't know what that policy is supposed to accomplish.

What a policy is supposed to accomplish shouldn't be about feelings

You cannot understand the goals of policy without empathy.

That's silly. Of course you can.

Hegemony is not a mode of democracy. It is usually not reasonable (which is why it has to be hegemonic).

I'm not endorsing hegemony, nor do I think hegemony is the opposite of empathy.

I'm not arguing with you about this.

Ok.

Once again, this is a topic I know well and you've never thought about except in slogans.

Wrong.

Funny how our dynamics keep coming back to this.

That's your POV.

 

[UNCatTech]

And you can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into.

Zen didn't come to his beliefs after thought and reflection. He just hates women and queers.

He and Silence are just bad people.

They refuse to accept that their are wrong and that this isn't binary.
They refuse to understand the phycology of sports and participation in group activities.
They believe the bullshit that the worst man is better and stronger than all women, otherwise their narrative of protection doesn't equate.
They lie and claim to be protecting women, but on other threads they want women to lose rights.

They are simply bad people.

And silence is worse because he has often expressed the personal joy he gets from others' suffering and hardships.

They don't understand empathy because they have none.

They are sociopathic.

 

[ZenMode]

And you can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into.

Zen didn't come to his beliefs after thought and reflection. He just hates women and queers.

^^^^^Attacking the messenger when you can't attack the message.^^^^

 

[StrangePackage]

^^^^^Attacking the messenger when you can't attack the message.^^^^

Transphobia, homophobia, and misogyny don't require rebuttals - they are per se invalid.

 

[superrific]

What a policy is supposed to accomplish shouldn't be about feelings

To the contrary, policy is all about feelings. What is the purpose of policy? It's to promote the common good, to use a simplistic term. The common good is usually defined in terms of happiness, at least in part, and happiness is a feeling. You literally cannot understand the ends of policy without empathy. Otherwise you just create a weird sterile robot society.

 

[ZenMode]

To the contrary, policy is all about feelings. What is the purpose of policy? It's to promote the common good, to use a simplistic term. The common good is usually defined in terms of happiness, at least in part, and happiness is a feeling. You literally cannot understand the ends of policy without empathy. Otherwise you just create a weird sterile robot society.

Policy should be based on what is the right thing to do, not what feels good to do.

In this case, the right thing to do is to keep males out of female sports because they have an unfair competitive advantage.

Again, this, The unfair competitive advantage that males have over females, has been known for a very long time. It's when we start incorporating feelings, AKA empathizing, that we start ignoring what is right and doing what makes us feel good.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

Remember when Zen first started posting here how he initially tried to present himself as a reasonable and moderate and objective poster? LOL. Those days are definitely gone.

 

[ZenMode]

Remember when Zen first started posting here how he initially tried to present himself as a reasonable and centrist and objective poster? LOL. Those days are definitely gone.

I think you're confusing centrist with leftist. I support everyone's right to live their life however they please. If you want to change your gender every day, go for it. If you're a male with a footlong beard and want to wear a sundress to church, I couldn't care less. If you want to marry somebody that is the same sex as you, go for it. If you want to marry two somebodies, one that is the same sex as you and one that isn't, I'm fine with that.

If being a centrist means that you ignore science, what's actually right and wrong and make decisions based on feelings, but feelings of only one group involved, then I'm not on board.

 

[farce©]

Everybody thinks they are a centrist.

 

[Calheel]

In this case, the right thing to do is to keep males out of female sports because they have an unfair competitive advantage.

Any room for nuance in your position? For example, are you ok with mixed gender in some sports? Is there a level where you would be OK with mixed gender, for example elementary, junior high or high school? Are you OK with biological females competing on male teams?

 

[ZenMode]

Any room for nuance in your position? For example, are you ok with mixed gender in some sports? Is there a level where you would be OK with mixed gender, for example elementary, junior high or high school? Are you OK with biological females competing on male teams?

I think girls can play in boy's sports as long as they can. I'm fine with pre-pubescent kids playing together.

I'm not even totally opposed to males playing in female sports with sufficient hormone treatment. I think more research needs to be done on that. My guess is that will be the eventual compromise.

 

[Calheel]

I think girls can play in boy's sports as long as they can. I'm fine with pre-pubescent kids playing together.

I'm not even totally opposed to males playing in female sports with sufficient hormone treatment. I think more research needs to be done on that. My guess is that will be the eventual compromise.

But aren’t you opposed to hormone treatment for minors? Or is that someone else?

So prepubescent would be before middle school, right? You don’t want boys in girls sports once they get older than 11?