GOP & Policies toward/treatment of Transgender & other LGBTQ Americans

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Mulberry Heel said:
Remember when Zen first started posting here how he initially tried to present himself as a reasonable and centrist and objective poster? LOL. Those days are definitely gone.
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I think you're confusing centrist with leftist. I support everyone's right to live their life however they please. If you want to change your gender every day, go for it. If you're a male with a footlong beard and want to wear a sundress to church, I couldn't care less. If you want to marry somebody that is the same sex as you, go for it. If you want to marry two somebodies, one that is the same sex as you and one that isn't, I'm fine with that.

If being a centrist means that you ignore science, what's actually right and wrong and make decisions based on feelings, but feelings of only one group involved, then I'm not on board.
 
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ZenMode said:
In this case, the right thing to do is to keep males out of female sports because they have an unfair competitive advantage.
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Any room for nuance in your position? For example, are you ok with mixed gender in some sports? Is there a level where you would be OK with mixed gender, for example elementary, junior high or high school? Are you OK with biological females competing on male teams?
 
Calheel said:
Any room for nuance in your position? For example, are you ok with mixed gender in some sports? Is there a level where you would be OK with mixed gender, for example elementary, junior high or high school? Are you OK with biological females competing on male teams?
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I think girls can play in boy's sports as long as they can. I'm fine with pre-pubescent kids playing together.

I'm not even totally opposed to males playing in female sports with sufficient hormone treatment. I think more research needs to be done on that. My guess is that will be the eventual compromise.
 
ZenMode said:
I think girls can play in boy's sports as long as they can. I'm fine with pre-pubescent kids playing together.

I'm not even totally opposed to males playing in female sports with sufficient hormone treatment. I think more research needs to be done on that. My guess is that will be the eventual compromise.
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But aren’t you opposed to hormone treatment for minors? Or is that someone else?

So prepubescent would be before middle school, right? You don’t want boys in girls sports once they get older than 11?
 
Calheel said:
But aren’t you opposed to hormone treatment for minors? Or is that someone else?

So prepubescent would be before middle school, right? You don’t want boys in girls sports once they get older than 11?
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I am against it. I was talking more 'in theory' or college.

There's a current age where schools/sports leagues separate kids. That seems to work.
 
ZenMode said:
I'm not even totally opposed to males playing in female sports with sufficient hormone treatment. I think more research needs to be done on that. My guess is that will be the eventual compromise.
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It may shock you to know that this was pretty unproblematically what was done until the culture war right decided that trans people would be their next targets. The Olympics asked trans women to submit blood test results showing that their testosterone levels were at less than 15 ng/dL (well below the top end of normal for cis women, especially athletes) before they were allowed to compete. If every professional league adhered to this standard, trans people and those who support them would not have any problems.
ZenMode said:
I am against it. I was talking more 'in theory' or college.

There's a current age where schools/sports leagues separate kids. That seems to work.
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Based on the fact that we're having this conversation, it very clearly does not work. What do you think the goals of youth sports are? Why do they exist?
 
akillesheel said:
It may shock you to know that this was pretty unproblematically what was done until the culture war right decided that trans people would be their next targets. The Olympics asked trans women to submit blood test results showing that their testosterone levels were at less than 15 ng/dL (well below the top end of normal for cis women, especially athletes) before they were allowed to compete. If every professional league adhered to this standard, trans people and those who support them would not have any problems.

Based on the fact that we're having this conversation, it very clearly does not work. What do you think the goals of youth sports are? Why do they exist?
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To give ephebophiles something to do outside.
 
akillesheel said:
It may shock you to know that this was pretty unproblematically what was done until the culture war right decided that trans people would be their next targets. The Olympics asked trans women to submit blood test results showing that their testosterone levels were at less than 15 ng/dL (well below the top end of normal for cis women, especially athletes) before they were allowed to compete. If every professional league adhered to this standard, trans people and those who support them would not have any problems.
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My primary concern is public schools and universities. Private entities can do as they please and deal with any consequences.
akillesheel said:
Based on the fact that we're having this conversation, it very clearly does not work.
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My kids played sports, either through the city, private businesses or through public schools, as late as 8th grade I believe, and I don't recall having any issue with how boys and girls were/weren't combined.

This conversation is about allowing older males to play in female sports after they would have already been separated in the normal progression
akillesheel said:
What do you think the goals of youth sports are? Why do they exist?
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Depends a lot on where you draw the line for "youth", but there are varying goals depending on age and experience.
 
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ZenMode said:
My primary concern is public schools and universities. Private entities can do as they please and deal with any consequences.
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Why do you draw the line there? If you're worried about the ostensible harm done to female athletes by trans athletes in public schools, why wouldn't that extend to private entities?
 
hedge said:
Why do you draw the line there? If you're worried about the ostensible harm done to female athletes by trans athletes in public schools, why wouldn't that extend to private entities?
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I draw the line there because they're private entities. That's really about it. I don't believe they're obligated to prioritize fairness.
 
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ZenMode said:
I am against it. I was talking more 'in theory' or college.

There's a current age where schools/sports leagues separate kids. That seems to work.
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If you don’t start hormone therapy till 18, you would still have a genetic advantage. In any event, it would likely take two years of therapy to reduce testosterone to sufficiently low levels, so you'd really only be talking about two years of competition. That does not seem like a solution that would ever be implemented.
 
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I'm probably pretty left but it's more coincidence than doctrine. It's not something that much concerns me. Give me a shot of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness with a chaser of do unto others on the side and I don't give much of a damn about the political spectrum.
 
Calheel said:
If you don’t start hormone therapy till 18, you would still have a genetic advantage. In any event, it would likely take two years of therapy to reduce testosterone to sufficiently low levels, so you'd really only be talking about two years of competition. That does seem like a solution that would ever be implemented.
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I don't know how long hormone treatment takes. If your time frame is accurate, then puberty blockers may be the best solution. I'm not a big fan, but it's better than surgery.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't know how long hormone treatment takes. If your time frame is accurate, then puberty blockers may be the best solution. I'm not a big fan, but it's better than surgery.
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Unless you are considering the treatment or your child is considering treatment, you being a fan doesn't matter.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't know how long hormone treatment takes. If your time frame is accurate, then puberty blockers may be the best solution. I'm not a big fan, but it's better than surgery.
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Wait. You want to change your view on puberty blockers for the tens of thousands of kids across the US so that the 10 or so transgender athletes that eventually play in the NCAA have less of a competitive advantage?

Does that make any sense at all? You have 99.99% of the dog wagging the tippy tip of the dog's tail.
 
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