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GOP & Policies toward/treatment of Transgender & other LGBTQ Americans

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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ZenMode said:
I think my first comment was on point. I think it's incredibly odd for the state to have a Christmas tree focused on sexual attraction and a mental disorder.
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I think it's odd for the state to have a Christmas tree or trees at all. What would be the difference if it were a mental health center? They deal with those all the time. What if it was an evangelical church? In my mind, they are carriers of a mental disorder. What makes this tree different other than your prejudices?

Properly, all the trees should be treated the same. Is it clear that happened? Was there something other than the cause alone that made this different? If you were to make your objection from that POV that there was a demonstrable difference your opinion might actually be worth more than as a bad example.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
The answer here for me is that if she uses the women’s restroom, she’s putting other biological women in an awkward spot where they’re in the bathroom with a biological man.

If she uses the men’s restroom, it’s likely more awkward for her as the transgender person but it’s not like she’s never been in men’s restrooms. I can see how that would be awkward for her now that she believes she’s a woman, but that awkwardness is at least resting with the person who made the decision to change their gender and not with unsuspecting others who are forced to play along.

So for me it comes down to, someone is going to be uncomfortable either way, and it comes down to whether you’d rather make random females play along with her gender identity or if you’d rather make her play along with her birth sex.
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How are biological women going to know there's a trans woman in the bathroom with them? Do you think there's any point during a visit to the women's restroom when anyone sees anyone else's genitals? What do you think is more likely to make women more uncomfortable in the restroom - if they see a trans woman or a trans man?
 
ZenMode said:
I think my first comment was on point. I think it's incredibly odd for the state to have a Christmas tree focused on sexual attraction and a mental disorder.
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What is this "mental disorder" to which you keep referring?
 
finesse said:
I think it's odd for the state to have a Christmas tree or trees at all. What would be the difference if it were a mental health center? They deal with those all the time. What if it was an evangelical church? In my mind, they are carriers of a mental disorder. What makes this tree different other than your prejudices?

Properly, all the trees should be treated the same. Is it clear that happened? Was there something other than the cause alone that made this different? If you were to make your objection from that POV that there was a demonstrable difference your opinion might actually be worth more than as a bad example.
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I mentioned in my first post that I thought it was odd for the state to have any Christmas trees, given the obviously religious roots of Christmas. Having a tree for sexual attraction and mental illness only adds to the oddness. That doesn't mean that other trees couldn't be odd in their own way or even more odd.

Not sure what you mean by "all the trees should be treated the same".

For the record, and to ensure there is no doubt in your mind, I would prefer the state had no Christmas trees.
 
Is it some intricate feat of mental gymnastics to go from treated the same way to judged by the same standards? Sorry.
 
ZenMode said:
Having "pride" in something that you don't control is also odd, but that's a separate and bigger topic.
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Are you proud to be an American? Are you proud of your kids?

I guess we're going back to this thing where you decide to impose your own weird set of constraints on the English language and insist everyone else respect them. "Pride" is the opposite of "ashamed." For most of this country's history, gay people were told to be ashamed of themselves, forced to be ashamed of themselves, internalized the shame and often ended up hating themselves. "Pride" is the opposite of that. When we talk about black pride, gay pride, trans pride -- it's all about communicating to people that they need not be ashamed of themselves, that they can be as self-confident in their identities as the straightest whitest man around.
 
superrific said:
Are you proud to be an American? Are you proud of your kids?

I guess we're going back to this thing where you decide to impose your own weird set of constraints on the English language and insist everyone else respect them. "Pride" is the opposite of "ashamed." For most of this country's history, gay people were told to be ashamed of themselves, forced to be ashamed of themselves, internalized the shame and often ended up hating themselves. "Pride" is the opposite of that. When we talk about black pride, gay pride, trans pride -- it's all about communicating to people that they need not be ashamed of themselves, that they can be as self-confident in their identities as the straightest whitest man around.
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Like I mentioned, this is getting into a much bigger topic that would only derail the thread. To answer your two questions, no, I don't feel pride that i'm American. I feel fortunate and generally happy to have been born in America. If I were alive in the early 20th century, I'd probably be happy to be white, but wouldn't feel any pride about it because I had absolutely no control over it. I'm happy for my kids that they are generally quality people. I'm happy that my wife and I managed to create an environment that produced quality children but I don't feel pride about any of it because it's ultimately out of my/our/their control.
 
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ZenMode said:
Like I mentioned, this is getting into a much bigger topic that would only derail the thread. To answer your two questions, no, I don't feel pride that i'm American. I feel fortunate and generally happy to have been born in America. I'm happy for my kids that they are generally quality people. I'm happy that my wife and I managed to create an environment that produced quality children but I don't feel pride about any of it.
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You and I apparently feel somewhat similarly about these things. But can you acknowledge, as I can, that many millions of people think differently?

There's an artist named Lee Greenwood who has built a small fortune around the line "proud to be an American"? And have you really never heard the phrase "proud parent"? Seen the bumper stickers saying "proud parent of an honor roll student at . . . "? Being "proud" of your kids is one of the more universally shared emotions and well-regarded values in the entire country.
 
superrific said:
You and I apparently feel somewhat similarly about these things. But can you acknowledge, as I can, that many millions of people think differently?

There's an artist named Lee Greenwood who has built a small fortune around the line "proud to be an American"? And have you really never heard the phrase "proud parent"? Seen the bumper stickers saying "proud parent of an honor roll student at . . . "? Being "proud" of your kids is one of the more universally shared emotions and well-regarded values in the entire country.
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If you and I agree then it has to be the right view.

Yes, I get that people often feel pride in things. As a parent, you feel pride if your kid gets straight A's throughout high school and gets into Harvard Law School. That's because of the common but misguided view that, as a parent, you had ultimate control over the way you parented that resulted in the work ethic that caused the straight A's. I can understand that to a point. What doesn't make sense is feeling pride in things that you clearly had no control over like race and sexual attraction.
 
ZenMode said:
That's because of the common but misguided view that, as a parent, you had ultimate control over the way you parented that resulted in the work ethic that caused the straight A's.
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Or maybe you just misunderstand words like proud or pride. Egotists like you who just assume that you're right and everyone else is "misguided" commonly have such issues. They just can't accept that words don't necessarily mean what they think the words should mean.
 
ZenMode said:
As I mentioned earlier, it's not necessarily the trans women I'm worried about. The numbers are too low to really matter.

My concern is opening the door to all males, trans or not, being permitted in women's showers, locker rooms and bathrooms, because I don't see how you can legally allow "only males who believe they are females".
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If a perv wants to dress as a women to enter the women's restroom, what's stopping them now?
 
I know we want our kids to have it better than we did in every way but. imo, if your real goal isn't for them to be better people than you, you're doing it wrong. If they are, you should be proud.
 
rodoheel said:
How are biological women going to know there's a trans woman in the bathroom with them? Do you think there's any point during a visit to the women's restroom when anyone sees anyone else's genitals? What do you think is more likely to make women more uncomfortable in the restroom - if they see a trans woman or a trans man?
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My rule for the bathrooms would be the same as it would be for sports.

If you’ve ever been a man at any point, you use the men’s bathroom and play men’s sports.

If you were born a female and are still a female, you use the women’s bathroom and play women’s sports.

So to answer your question, women wouldn’t have to confront either of your alternatives in the restroom.
 
ZenMode said:
Having "pride" in something that you don't control is also odd, but that's a separate and bigger topic.
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You have no pride in who you are?

There are many aspects of your life that you don't specifically control.

The term means they are proud of themselves, not simply their sexual orientation.
 
superrific said:
Or maybe you just misunderstand words like proud or pride. Egotists like you who just assume that you're right and everyone else is "misguided" commonly have such issues. They just can't accept that words don't necessarily mean what they think the words should mean.
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I guess I'm not aware of a definition of pride that would make sense when it comes to things we have no control over. I get not being ashamed, but pride is normally associated (even if it's misguided) with achievement of some sort. I didn't achieve whiteness or straightness or maleness. I just am those things.
 
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