I do want conservatives on here

1/3 of the country?
Is it bad if 2/3rds of the country doesn't want to play in the same sandbox as the other 1/3rd?
The thing is, 2/3 is ok with the other 1/3 as long as the 1/3 don't shit in the sandbox.

The problem is, the 1/3 wants to dominate the sandbox while also shitting in it. At the same time , they want to rub the noses of the other 2/3s in the shit while sitting back and laughing. Eventually, something's got to give.

Now mind you, the right wingers will try to shift the blame and paint themselves as the "silent majority" - or the aforementioned 2/3s - while claiming the "libruls" are the 1/3 in the above scenario.

But we all know that's not the case.

The problem for the 2/3 - the "libruls" - is, they have a messaging problem. If you want to get everybody in the sandbox to play together - even those who shit the sandbox - how do you teach them all that that's not cool, without ostracizing them? It's the conundrum of the left. Big tent. All are welcome, just don't shit in here with out cleaning up after yourself. And if you do, oh well... we'll clean it up for you because that's who we are.

The hard-right wingers don't give 2 shits. They'll shit the bed, shoot your dog, eat your cow and then demand you clean it all up. Then they'll claim you can't play in the same sandbox with them anymore. You and your kind have to go sit in the smaller sandbox and drink out of a different water cooler.

The right will always win that game because they don't care about living in shit.

Drive around rural N. Carolina and look at the squalor - with those trump flags flying. Those rebel flags flying. Don't tread on me muthafucker! "And if you don't like Murikkka, then move!"
 
Empathetic but generally less so than Democrats.

Empathetic but generally less so than Democrats.

Empathetic but generally less so than Democrats.

Empathetic but generally less so than Democrats.

Some Republicans are more empathetic than others, yes.

That doesn't mean those conservatives are going to be as empathetic as most Dems on most topics. Political views between parties are general a different of degrees, not extremes.

I'd be surprised if mistreatment of animals is tied to one party. Dog fighting is brutal and probably not common among Republicans.

Unfounded hyperbole.

{Visible confusion}


So, you believe MAGA wants to take away rights for women and minorities? Which rights? Do you actually believe they want to take away women's right to vote?
“The fundamental weakness of Western Civilization is empathy.”
 
Not sure where to put this—if mods or anyone can think of a better thread, I’m all for moving it:

I just recently watched this documentary on Netflix. Strangely, despite having nothing explicitly to do with politics, this flick more than anything else encapsulates the problem with trying to communicate with MAGA folks.


Short synopsis of the flick is that a mob boss in Connecticut bought a minor league hockey team, brought them to New Haven, all for his 17-yr old son to manage.

Son (with mob bosses connections and blessing) fills the roster with goons, Slap Shot style. The team does well, and of course becomes infamous because of their goonery and violence.

The part that struck me most was how the blue-collar locals LOVED the team, loved the violence, loved the mobbed-up culture. They sold out every game. Every single fan interviewed in the doc was absolutely a MAGA supporter. They were angry with the league for enforcing penalties against the team and owners/managers.

MAGA folks root for the bad guys in movies. They love the attention they get by thumbing their noses at the rules and the “experts”. You can’t talk reason with them because they don’t give a shit about reasoning.
Are you sure they are all MAGA? Danbury, Connecticut leans Democrat and has voted Democrat for president the last 4 cycles. The mayor and the majority of the city council are Democrats. I guess that the fans could be exclusively Republican or that they only selected MAGA's for interviews but that seems unlikely. The odds are pretty good that at least some of the interviewed did not vote for Trump.
 
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“The fundamental weakness of Western Civilization is empathy.”
Certainly Elon doesn't speak for the Republican Party or all Republicans. I don't think empathy is THE fundamental weakness, but it most certainly is A weakness.
 
Respectfully, I think what you are describing is an issue of class and not political affiliation. No one in my orbit has an outside dog on a short lease. Quite the opposite.
Those folks are on your team. And you are OK with that because you know you and your team can’t win elections without them. Same with Nazis, Racists, misogynists etc. You may not be any of those, but you are OK with them because you need them for reasons, eg taxes and regulation (the deficit be damned). Only deficits under Dems are bad.
 
Those folks are on your team. And you are OK with that because you know you and your team can’t win elections without them. Same with Nazis, Racists, misogynists etc. You may not be any of those, but you are OK with them because you need them for reasons, eg taxes and regulation (the deficit be damned). Only deficits under Dems are bad.
Some of them, yes. Dems have their "team" as well that they need to win elections. Obviously, in a two party system a lot of people in your party are going to be less than ideal.
 
“The fundamental weakness of Western Civilization is empathy.”
Zen is trying too hard here….
My conclusions are:
Yes - Dems, liberals, progressives are WAY MORE empathetic than Pubs, Cons, Maga and Tea Party.
Yes - I believe Maga-types are WAY MORE apt to attend dog fights, cock fights, keep their dogs on a short chain out in the cold of winter.
Yes - I believe Maga wants to “Make America Great Again” by moving the country back to the early 1950’s if not the 1850’s. And by that they mean to take away the rights of women and minorities.
Yes - I know Trump doesn’t like animals. Yes - I know Trump’s kids go hunt big game animals for sport. Yes - they have no empathy for animals of any kind, human or otherwise.
Yes - I believe the majority of those who support the mob-led thug hockey team in Connecticut are Republican Magas. I have no doubt whatsoever.

Quit trying so hard Zen.

Finally, I like Tarspiel’s idea of including conservatives on this board - but only the kind who have disavowed trump and Maga. I want to hear their stories of why they think their fellow Republicans have fallen hook, line and sinker for tea-party, Maga B.S.. I want to hear what it was that persuaded them to not go that way and why they think their conservative neighbors actually support white South Africans; why they support the Alt right in Germany; why they think Orban in Hungary gets it right; why they think our life-long enemy in Putin and Russia are now our friends and allies; why did they fall for trump’s grift and con game? How can they be that stupid?
 
Those folks are on your team. And you are OK with that because you know you and your team can’t win elections without them. Same with Nazis, Racists, misogynists etc. You may not be any of those, but you are OK with them because you need them for reasons, eg taxes and regulation (the deficit be damned). Only deficits under Dems are bad.
Ram has to go outside more often. His immediate neighbor may not keep his dog outside 100% of the time. His neighbor is probably one of the rich Maga who has a house, yard and compound which is gated and totally fenced in. Those type Pubs can let their dog run around the yard and then let them in the garage during the cold winter. Maybe even let them into the house itself.

But Ram needs to drive around rural NC, rural America. He needs to see the trailers and run down old mill houses with cars up on blocks in the front yard… with the Trump 2020 flags still flying next to the rebel flags. Ram needs to take a close look, because in the back yard of those dwellings he will see that poor old hound dog on that short chain, or in a small dog pen with one of those cheap plastic doghouses.

Ram needs to own it. He and his rich pub friends who voted for trump and the tax cuts have to realize that their Maga brethren Simply do not have it in their DNA to empathize with “the other”. They’re pea brains aren’t wired that way.
 
Some of them, yes. Dems have their "team" as well that they need to win elections. Obviously, in a two party system a lot of people in your party are going to be less than ideal.
I disagree with policies of some on my “team”, but Pubs have a corner on the market for Nazis, Racists and misogynists (deplorable human beings). You disagree with Dems on policy- I get that. Who are the deplorables on the Dem side? No Dem would align themselves politically with those deplorables on your team.
 
I regularly travel through rural Georgia on my way to the coast. I obviously see what you describe but you're painting these folks with waaay too broad of a brush. Being poor doesn't mean you have bad character or morals. Lot's of decent poor people in the South.

I still see Rebel flags in rural Georgia but they are A LOT less common than 10 - 20 years ago.
 
Respectfully, I think what you are describing is an issue of class and not political affiliation. No one in my orbit has an outside dog on a short lease. Quite the opposite.
In Georgia there are laws regarding leashes. Not sure if state wide or county, but my previous neighbor was fined for having a dog outside on a leash. The requirement was a fence or inside, no leashes.

I actually agree that this isn't a political issue. I'm sure treatment of animals is a spectrum on both sides of the political divide and I'm confident that they are fairly equal.
 
Some of them, yes. Dems have their "team" as well that they need to win elections. Obviously, in a two party system a lot of people in your party are going to be less than ideal.
I really wish we would lose the team analogy. This isn't sport, it's much more important.

The things our government does isn't limited to your team or mine, it impacts us all.
 
No.
Every group has outliers.

She's clearly a nut, but I'm not sure she can be considered the norm for how people treat animals.
Noem got extreme blowback from MAGA/Republicans after this came out. It instantly ended any chance she had of being the VP.

Why she thought people would be impressed by that story is beyond me.
 
No.

Noem got extreme blowback from MAGA/Republicans after this came out. It instantly ended any chance she had of being the VP.

Why she thought people would be impressed by that story is beyond me.
yeah man, it really tanked her career. from governor of piddly-ass south dakota to *checks notes* DHS secretary.

18th in the line of succession to the presidency. what a fall from grace!
 
No.

Noem got extreme blowback from MAGA/Republicans after this came out. It instantly ended any chance she had of being the VP.

Why she thought people would be impressed by that story is beyond me.
She got from that story exactly what she wanted: a cabinet position.

1. Let's illustrate the idea of subtext with an example: Have you ever read the bible? You know how some of the stories seem, well, trivial if you take them at face value? Let's consider the parable of the Judgement of Solomon -- the famous story about two moms who both claim to be the baby's mother, and Solomon proposed cutting the baby in half, at which point the true mother revealed herself. Why would that completely insignificant story be included in the history of the Jewish people? Moses parted the red sea. The Jewish people had powerful military triumphs but also heartbreaking defeats. Sometimes God created miracles. And also, this one time, the king didn't kill a baby.

So that's weird and bizarre, isn't it? It's especially weird that, in the story, the mothers acted idiotically. The idea that the fake mother would agree to accept "half" of the severed child is absolutely nuts (also, who would have severed the child in two? What technology would have made that possible? The king was really going to order a soldier to split a baby in two with an axe?). It obviously didn't happen that way. Nor would the real mother simply renounce her claim, unless she thought Solomon was a bloodthirsty tyrant who meant what he said about splitting the baby -- and that would be a strange thought, given that the story and many others are specifically demonstrating that he was not such a tyrant.

Obviously, the story is metaphorical. We're not supposed to think of the baby literally. Rather, the baby represents something else. A lot of people, as far as I know, think that the baby is a metaphor for the Jewish people. The story thus describes the nature of leadership, and it also sets forth the values that define the Jewish people: empathy and sacrifice. The baby-splitter mom symbolizes a nakedly transaction view of the world, in which the goal is to get your share regardless of what is required. Solomon realizes that's not the society God wants.

[Note: there plenty of other subtextual stories in the Bible that work somewhat similarly -- Abraham and Isaac for instance.]

2. So, what's the subtext of Noem's story? Like the Solomon story, it's meant to describe a form of leadership -- but one that is very different in nature, given that Solomon preserved the baby and Noem killed the dog. Both stories are trying to communicate a leadership principle. Solomon shows that empathy is a defining aspect of the Jewish religion. Noem is trying to show that she's cold-blooded enough to kill when it's needed.

Why does she call the dog "extremely dangerous"? It obviously wasn't. It looked like a puppy, but deep down it was a killer that needed to be put down. Hmm, who does that resemble? Oh, yes: migrants. They seem like innocent people who come to the US to escape oppression and who just want to earn money for their families -- but Trump and the GOP claim they are anything but. They are a sinister shadowy group of people who are extremely dangerous, who are invading our country, whose gangs take over towns and terrorize the residents. Now, it would be especially bad form for Noem to brag about killing a human, so she demonstrates her lack of empathy by killing a dog.

Does this interpretation of the story -- i.e. as a parable about jettisoning toxic empathy -- fit Noem's later actions? Oh yes it does. Look at her cosplay at the El Salvador prison. She killed the dog because it had to be done to protect. They shipped the people to El Salvador without due process, because it had to be done to correct. She was advertising her heartlessness, which is exactly what Trump wants out of DHS.

3. So does it make sense now why she included the story? It wasn't an accident and it wasn't a bad judgment. She knew what she was communicating, and it was in fact communicated to the person who cared.
 
I'm not sure the German people would agree with you. I don't think it's a coincidence that the internet hate-o-sphere emerged at the same time as the resurgence of neo-Nazi activity in the past decade.

And I also think that most virtual spaces would be made worse by people posting shit like, "slavery was a good thing," or "Hitler was right."
I think you're framing the question slightly differently than I did. I'm not saying that it's a good thing for people to be able to post things like "slavery was a good thing," or "Hitler was right." My point is that outright banning people from saying things is not a productive or helpful way to deal with the issue, because it always leads to a difficult and contentious line-drawing process. It's easy when you frame it as obviously odious speech, but it's much harder to agree exactly where the line is.

I actually think that the German/European experience supports this. Have Europe's much stricter speech rules, especially around things like the Nazis, done anything to quell the rise of right-wing nationalism across the continent, including in Germany? No, not really. You can't choke a viewpoint out of existence by outlawing anyone from expressing it, no matter how obviously odious it might be, and in some ways those laws can actually help such viewpoints flourish. I think it's similar on a message board. We don't need to try to create ever-expanding rules about which speech is so self-evidently wrong that it should be outright banned, and we will never all agree about what those things are anyway. Liberal use of the ignore button, or just excoriating people who say such things, will work at least as well.
 
I regularly travel through rural Georgia on my way to the coast. I obviously see what you describe but you're painting these folks with waaay too broad of a brush. Being poor doesn't mean you have bad character or morals. Lot's of decent poor people in the South.

I still see Rebel flags in rural Georgia but they are A LOT less common than 10 - 20 years ago.
Being on welfare or unemployment or being an undocumented immigrant doesn't mean you have bad character or morals either, but you would sure think that from hearing Republicans talk about these issues and what their preferred policies all.
 
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