Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

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roostra said:
How is Hamas using Israel's morality against them when they bomb civilian buildings anyways? And to be clear, it is a war crime for Hamas to do this (but it is a war crime to bomb these targets regardless).
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Civilians are sometimes killed. That's a byproduct of war, but Israel tries to limit civilian deaths in a number of ways. That's why, despite over a year of fighting, there are only 50k civilian deaths.
 
ZenMode said:
Civilians are sometimes killed. That's a byproduct of war, but Israel tries to limit civilian deaths in a number of ways. That's why, despite over a year of fighting, there are only 50k civilian deaths.
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Only 50k deaths? Seriously? I don't think the IDF is intentionally trying to maximize civilian casualties, but they certainly are not doing much to minimize them either
 
ZenMode said:
There are 15k people/sq mile in Gaza. If Israel didn't care about civilians causalities, there would be a LOT more than 50k civilian deaths in over a year of fighting.
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Ok, they care. They just care about the civilians in Gaza at approximately the same level a cattle rancher cares about his livestock.
 
roostra said:
Only 50k deaths? Seriously? I don't think the IDF is intentionally trying to maximize civilian casualties, but they certainly are not doing much to minimize them either
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If you consider that Hamas killed about 1100 civilians in 8 hours, using nothing but knives and handheld guns, the fact that IDF has only killed 50k in 1.5 years is a fairly impressive accomplishment.

If IDF only matched Hamas' rate, they'd be near 500k civilian deaths by now.
 
ZenMode said:
Civilians are sometimes killed. That's a byproduct of war, but Israel tries to limit civilian deaths in a number of ways. That's why, despite over a year of fighting, there are only 50k civilian deaths.
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Ah yes, they try to limit them by all the headshots at children and women. Just watch the interviews with American doctors that say how they saw countless number of children with sniper shots to the head. Let me guess, there’s a Hamas guy that was standing right behind them and they coincidentally walked run in front of the bullet.
Using bunker busting bombs on tents for refugees is not trying to limit civilian death. Anyone who believes that is either an idiot or has their head in the sand.
 
RaiGuy said:
Ah yes, they try to limit them by all the headshots at children and women. Just watch the interviews with American doctors that say how they saw countless number of children with sniper shots to the head. Let me guess, there’s a Hamas guy that was standing right behind them and they coincidentally walked run in front of the bullet.
Using bunker busting bombs on tents for refugees is not trying to limit civilian death. Anyone who believes that is either an idiot or has their head in the sand.
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We've had this discussion before. I'm quite sure there are bad, immoral IDF soldiers who do terrible things. There is also the reality the IDF are in an impossible situation because Hamas will not only use civilian women and children as human shields, but will also arm them or use the as explosive devices.
 
Healing said:
“only 50k civilian deaths”
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Nope. Gaza has 15k per square mile and a population of over 3 million. The fact that Israel, with actual military weapons/explosivs, has killed only 100/day on average should be commended, not condemned. Again Hamas killed 1100 in a matter of hours with guns and knives

Labeling inconvenient or uncomfortable details as trolling allows people to keep believing what they want to believe.
 
ZenMode said:
Nope. Gaza has 15k per square mile and a population of over 3 million. The fact that Israel, with actual military weapons/explosivs, has killed only 100/day on average should be commended, not condemned. Again Hamas killed 1100 in a matter of hours with guns and knives

Labeling inconvenient or uncomfortable details as trolling allows people to keep believing what they want to believe.
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The actual number is much, much higher than that.
 
RaiGuy said:
The actual number is much, much higher than that.
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Okay. Even if you doubled the number, it would still pale in comparison to what Hamas accomplished in 8 hours with inferior weaponry And that's with Hamas not caring if civilians die.
 
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ZenMode said:
Okay. Even if you doubled the number, it would still pale in comparison to what Hamas accomplished in 8 hours with inferior weaponry And that's with Hamas not caring if civilians die.
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No, it literally doesn't. Yes, Hamas intended to kill those folks and that was fucking evil. But they have not continued to do so. So we have a very simple math problem. 1100 plus innocent Israeli dead versus 50000 plus innocent Palestinian dead. There is no comparison. And before you say, well people die in war. There have been very severe critiques of Israeli targeting techniques (by US Military targeters) that state that their use of AI to pick targets and their willingness to risk collateral damage numbers that far exceed what the US military is willing to risk. The civilian casualty rates in this war are far in excess of the wars that have come before it.
 
roostra said:
No it literally doesn't. Yes, Hamas intended to kill those folks and that was fucking evil. But they have not continued to do so. So we have a very simple math problem. 1100 plus innocent Israeli dead versus 50000 plus innocent Palestinian dead. There is no comparison. And before you say, well people die in war. There have been very severe critiques of Israeli targeting techniques (by US Military targeters) that state that their use of AI to pick targets and their willingness to risk collateral damage numbers that far exceed what the US military is willing to risk.
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They haven’t continued to do so because they have been physically unable to do so. That’s not charity on Hamas’s part. They’d kill every single Israeli if they could.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
They haven’t continued to do so because they have been physically unable to do so. That’s not charity on Hamas’s part. They’d kill every single Israeli if they could.
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Yes, but they haven't. I fully concede that this is not charity. But Hamas does not equal the Palestinian people.

And Israel has continued to kill civilians.. The numbers of deaths are horribly disproportionate.
 
roostra said:
No, it literally doesn't. Yes, Hamas intended to kill those folks and that was fucking evil. But they have not continued to do so. So we have a very simple math problem. 1100 plus innocent Israeli dead versus 50000 plus innocent Palestinian dead. There is no comparison. And before you say, well people die in war. There have been very severe critiques of Israeli targeting techniques (by US Military targeters) that state that their use of AI to pick targets and their willingness to risk collateral damage numbers that far exceed what the US military is willing to risk. The civilian casualty rates in this war are far in excess of the wars that have come before it.
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I agree that there's no comparison if you're talking about gross numbers. My point always that Hamas was able to kill over 100 per hour with minimal weapons. Israel, with legit military weapons, capable of killing hundreds at at time, is only killing 100 per DAY. Hamas - 100 per hour. Israel 100 per day. And Gaza is a very densely populated area. 15k per square mile. With Israel's weapons, the dense population AND the fact that civilians are being used as human shields, killing 100 per day, on average, is pretty amazing and doesn't happen by chance.
 
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ZenMode said:
I agree that there's no comparison if you're talking about gross numbers. My point always that Hamas was able to kill over 100 per hour with minimal weapons. Israel, with legit military weapons, capable of killing hundreds at at time, is only killing 100 per DAY. Hamas - 100 per hour. Israel 100 per day. And Gaza is a very densely populated area. 15k per square mile. With Israel's weapons, the dense population AND the fact that civilians are being used as human shields, killing 100 per day, on average, is pretty amazing.
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Again, no, it is not amazing. They could be prosecuting this war according to US military guidelines and be killing FAR fewer civilians.

Your argument is tantamount to: the LAPD kills far fewer civilians in accidental crossfire shootings per day than the gangs kill on purpose per day, so we should celebrate! It is apples to oranges.

I hold Israel to a much higher standard than Hamas, in the same way that I would hold the US to a much higher standard than any terrorists they might be fighting, in the same way that I hold the Police to a higher standard than criminals.
 
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