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Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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  • Politics 
StrangePackage said:
Imagine a job where you wrongly kill a dozen innocent people and all that happens is you get fired?
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Is there some reason that you left out that the Netenyahu administration's policy of state sponsored killing was illegal and grossly immoral?

Getting fired be damned, it was deeply wrong by virtually any metric.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Is there some reason that you left out that the Netenyahu administration's policy of state sponsored killing was illegal and grossly immoral?

Getting fired be damned, it was deeply wrong by virtually any metric.
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Exactly. It's literally murder and the fact that the only consequences are termination of employment for a single person is unconscionable. The consequences for all involved in this war crime should be substantially more severe.

It won't be tho, and that's a problem in and of itself.
 
StrangePackage said:
Exactly. It's literally murder and the fact that the only consequences are termination of employment for a single person is unconscionable. The consequences for all involved in this war crime should be substantially more severe.

It won't be tho, and that's a problem in and of itself.
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Leaving out the fundamental wrongness is a way of sanitizing the behavior- especially when it is listed alongside other activities which are in no way morally equivalent.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Leaving out the fundamental wrongness is a way of sanitizing the behavior- especially when it is listed alongside other activities which are in no way morally equivalent.
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I think putting them side by side with something so obviously inappropriate made the sarcasm apparent.

I'm sorry you missed very obvious sarcasm.
 


These are the types of admissions they wouldn’t make under the Biden Administration but feel free to make now because they won’t impact Trump’s support or create political pressure within his own party to pressure Bibi’s war cabinet in any way.

I think Biden did the right thing in coming to Israel’s aid after October 7 but I said at the time that he had to know that Bibi was an unreliable partner (and obviously he did know that). I thought the Biden Administration handled things pretty deftly for the first 6 plus months after the attack by Hamas — including putting Bibi on his back foot politically as Biden demonstrated how to make human contact with shell-shocked Israelis.

I’m not sure if Biden’s cognitive decline or his deeply rooted dedication to Israel blinded his later policy decisions (or both) — there became no good options as Hamas refused to give up the hostages and the IDF clearly had a different agenda. The Biden Administration sometimes tried and mostly failed at restraining Israel and the IDF as things ground on, though at least got a ceasefire for a time.

Now there are no restraints at all but I’m not entirely sure how much difference that is making in terms of outcomes for the average Palestinian.
 
nycfan said:
I’m not sure if Biden’s cognitive decline or his deeply rooted dedication to Israel blinded his later policy decisions (or both) — there became no good options as Hamas refused to give up the hostages and the IDF clearly had a different agenda. The Biden Administration sometimes tried and mostly failed at restraining Israel and the IDF as things ground on, though at least got a ceasefire for a time.
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What happened is that it became election year.

No American politician can afford to be seen as favoring a Muslim terrorist group over Israel. The reality doesn't matter -- the appearance is deadly. No American politician with national ambitions can be seen as favoring the interests of brown foreigners over white foreigners. And it's especially problematic because there have been so many Arab/Muslim bad guys in that conflict that ordinary Americans really can't keep up. They will see, "Biden is on the side of terrorists" and the election would have been over.

I don't think any Dem president of our lifetime would have acted differently than Biden did in this regard. Pub presidents would have been pulling the opposite way of course.
 
nycfan said:


These are the types of admissions they wouldn’t make under the Biden Administration but feel free to make now because they won’t impact Trump’s support or create political pressure within his own party to pressure Bibi’s war cabinet in any way.

I think Biden did the right thing in coming to Israel’s aid after October 7 but I said at the time that he had to know that Bibi was an unreliable partner (and obviously he did know that). I thought the Biden Administration handled things pretty deftly for the first 6 plus months after the attack by Hamas — including putting Bibi on his back foot politically as Biden demonstrated how to make human contact with shell-shocked Israelis.

I’m not sure if Biden’s cognitive decline or his deeply rooted dedication to Israel blinded his later policy decisions (or both) — there became no good options as Hamas refused to give up the hostages and the IDF clearly had a different agenda. The Biden Administration sometimes tried and mostly failed at restraining Israel and the IDF as things ground on, though at least got a ceasefire for a time.

Now there are no restraints at all but I’m not entirely sure how much difference that is making in terms of outcomes for the average Palestinian.
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I think Biden could have and should have used the carrot of US arms to get more concessions. Reagan held delivery of F-16s from Israel to force them to withdraw from Lebanon in 83. It's effective and of course didn't seem to hurt Reagan during that election cycle.

And it's not like Biden's virtual capitulation to Israel really helped Harris or down ballot. Democrats are going to get moderate Jewish votes and money while Republicans are going to get evangelicals and more Hardline Jewish votes and money. I don't think a fair, more even-handed policy is really going to make much difference with that block. It might help a lot with people that don't like seeing babies blown up with American weapons, and of course, its the right thing to do.
 
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heelslegup said:
Israel releasing Marwan Barghouti (a la Mandela in South Africa) is the key to a peaceful solution
www.lemonde.fr

Marwan Barghouti, jailed in Israel since 2002, symbolizes ordeal of Palestinian prisoners

The leader of the second Intifada, incarcerated since 2002, has been subject to an extremely brutal detention regime in an Israeli prison since October 7.
www.lemonde.fr www.lemonde.fr
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He could be particularly useful against Hamas. I know he seems to have broken with Fatah, but he could unite many against Hamas.
 
nycfan said:
Tough story to watch



Related

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“…
Relief for the people of Gaza is nowhere in sight. As the economic chaos created by Trump’s tariff plan dominates news headlines across the West, Gaza is conveniently out of sight and out of mind for Israel as it continues its campaign of horror. As the world squabbles about supply chains and semiconductors, the people of Gaza enter a new phase of death and destruction.

As the days roll on and the death toll piles up, how will future generations remember the role we played in this disaster? Will they view us, and Trump, as peacemakers and not the ones that looked away? It is not our responsibility or in our interest to save the world, true, but it’s also naive to believe that we do not play a sizable role in permitting Israel’s continued bombardment and starvation of the Palestinian people. Something must change and quickly or the blood of innocents will forever be stapled to the recorded rule of Trump and the MAGA right….”
 
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