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Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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nycfan said:
Tough story to watch



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And then, Israel and it's supporters try to argue in a straight face that civilians aren't targeted. Imagine if the tables were turned and thousands of Israeli children were on the brink of literally dying from starvation? How would the US react in that situation? Israel (and the US) have been dehumanizing Palestinians for so long that many people just read this as a footnote and carry on with their lives. People had more concern about the Notre Dame Cathedral burning than thousands of children starving. This stuff takes a mental toll when you see what's happening and not only does our government here not care, they will try to detain and deport you if you speak out against it. This world is f***** up.
 
altmin said:
www.theguardian.com

Israel has no duty to allow UN aid agency into Gaza, says US state department lawyer

Joshua Simmons tells international court of justice that Israel’s concerns about Unwra are ‘credible’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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Last week, Donald Trump said he had personally urged Benjamin Netanyahu to allow aid into Gaza, but Israel has said the ban would continue until all hostages held by Hamas are released. Trump said he told Israel’s prime minister: “We have got to be good to Gaza.”

In December, the UN general assembly asked the ICJ to give an advisory opinion on Israel’s obligations as an occupying power to provide humanitarian aid, and whether the ban on cooperation and contact with Unrwa breaches its privileges and immunities as a UN body.

I think the right thing to do is to allow aid, but I understand Israel not wanting UNRWA to be the organization providing it.

I also understand Israel's desire to leverage civilians in Gaza to get their civilian hostages back from the terrorists. The problem that Israel continues to face is the question of how you fight a war against people who want to maximize civilian causalities? Even if Israel continues to cut-off all aid, I doubt it would matter to Hamas. If Hamas cared about civilian causalities, they would have built underground civilian bunkers rather than tunnels for the terroist fighters. If they cared about civilians, they'd at least allow the civilians to hide in the tunnels - they don't. If they cared about civilians, they wouldn't use them as human shields to maximize their deaths.

So, Israel, as they have multiple times, finds themselves in the awkward situation of fighting against people who no moral compass, while having to taken on moral obligations for not only Israelis but also Palestinians.
 
ZenMode said:
Last week, Donald Trump said he had personally urged Benjamin Netanyahu to allow aid into Gaza, but Israel has said the ban would continue until all hostages held by Hamas are released. Trump said he told Israel’s prime minister: “We have got to be good to Gaza.”

In December, the UN general assembly asked the ICJ to give an advisory opinion on Israel’s obligations as an occupying power to provide humanitarian aid, and whether the ban on cooperation and contact with Unrwa breaches its privileges and immunities as a UN body.

I think the right thing to do is to allow aid, but I understand Israel not wanting UNRWA to be the organization providing it.

I also understand Israel's desire to leverage civilians in Gaza to get their civilian hostages back from the terrorists. The problem that Israel continues to face is the question of how you fight a war against people who want to maximize civilian causalities? Even if Israel continues to cut-off all aid, I doubt it would matter to Hamas. If Hamas cared about civilian causalities, they would have built underground civilian bunkers rather than tunnels for the terroist fighters. If they cared about civilians, they'd at least allow the civilians to hide in the tunnels - they don't. If they cared about civilians, they wouldn't use them as human shields to maximize their deaths.

So, Israel, as they have multiple times, finds themselves in the awkward situation of fighting against people who no moral compass, while having to taken on moral obligations for not only Israelis but also Palestinians.
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You think Israel is taking on moral obligations? Israel is just as bad, or worse, than Hamas in terms of morality
 
RaiGuy said:
Hmm, starving a population, sniping women and children,
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Hamas uses women and children to kill Israelis. Hamas makes them "soldiers". As a result, IDF is in a no win situation where they have to consider literally any and every person as a threat... armed with weapons or explosives. Remember, IDF killed 3 hostages, who were trying to surrender to them, because they thought they were terrorists.
RaiGuy said:
bombing refugee camps, leveling all of Gaza, etc...
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Yep, Hamas should stop using refugee camps and other civilian locations to hide their terrorists leaders.
RaiGuy said:
So, you think those show morality? are you serious?
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I think the civilian death toll would be astronomically higher if IDF was behaving in the way people like you portray them. Again, they are fighting against people who WANT to maximize civilian death.

EDIT: I think Israel should allow non-UNRWA aid in.
 
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RaiGuy said:
You think Israel is taking on moral obligations? Israel is just as bad, or worse, than Hamas in terms of morality
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Even if we are to believe Israel wants all Palestinians dead, we know Hamas wants all Israeli citizens dead. So then it goes to the next level. Hamas kills gays for being gay. Does Israel? No. Supposedly, Palestinians don’t support Hamas. That’s what we hear at least. Israel overall supports their government.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
Even if we are to believe Israel wants all Palestinians dead, we know Hamas wants all Israeli citizens dead.
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Neither side wants that. Maybe some extremists on both sides, but the whole organizations? No. Not even close.

It's impossible to look at the actual facts on the ground and come away with an understanding that there is anything but perfect equivalence between the sides. This didn't start in 2023. Gaza was illegally blockaded for a decade and a half, with gross human rights violations committed by the Israelis.

Again, why does everything have to be black and white for you guys? Is it really hard for you to comprehend that there are no good guys in a conflict like this. If Israel was good, the situation would have been resolved long ago. Same with Hamas.
 
ZenMode said:
Hamas uses women and children to kill Israelis. Hamas makes them "soldiers". As a result, IDF is in a no win situation where they have to consider literally any and every person as a threat... armed with weapons or explosives. Remember, IDF killed 3 hostages, who were trying to surrender to them, because they thought they were terrorists.

Yep, Hamas should stop using refugee camps and other civilian locations to hide their terrorists leaders.

I think the civilian death toll would be astronomically higher if IDF was behaving in the way people like you portray them. Again, they are fighting against people who WANT to maximize civilian death.

EDIT: I think Israel should allow non-UNRWA aid in.
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wow, over a year and a half of the genocide and you still believe these lies. So, you're justifying Israeli troops sniping children in the head because of false rumors that Hamas makes them soldiers? With that logic, all Israelis are ok to be targeted because they are all required to serve in the IDF.

You also think dropping a bunker buster bomb on tents is fine because Israel claims, without showing proof, that a Hamas leader was in the tents? Are you that gullible?

You're also fine with them starving the whole population? Other aid groups have tried to enter but have been barred. However, you believe the Israeli excuses over and over again.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
Even if we are to believe Israel wants all Palestinians dead, we know Hamas wants all Israeli citizens dead. So then it goes to the next level. Hamas kills gays for being gay. Does Israel? No. Supposedly, Palestinians don’t support Hamas. That’s what we hear at least. Israel overall supports their government.
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So this is about gay rights now? Do you think Israeli bombs stop before they hit to ask if there is a gay person under it?

So, you say Hamas wants to get of Israelis, however, Israel is LITERALLY doing that to Palestinians, and you need more proof? They are literally starving all the Palestinians in Gaza and have destroyed/damaged nearly every building in Gaza and they want to expel what remaining survivors there are. Then, they are literally starting the same thing in the West Bank, yet, you need more evidence? Literally thousands of Palestinian children are about to starve to death because of Israel. What is your justification for that?
 
RaiGuy said:
wow, over a year and a half of the genocide and you still believe these lies.
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There's been no genocide. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they could. About 50k civilians, over a year and a half, isn't reflective of genocide.
RaiGuy said:
So, you're justifying Israeli troops sniping children in the head because of false rumors that Hamas makes them soldiers?
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False rumors my ass.
RaiGuy said:
With that logic, all Israelis are ok to be targeted because they are all required to serve in the IDF.
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IDF, until proven otherwise, follows protocols for war, which include uniforms that allow them to be identified as military personnel. IDF, until proven otherwise, has not used non-military Israeli women or children in battle.
RaiGuy said:
You also think dropping a bunker buster bomb on tents is fine because Israel claims, without showing proof, that a Hamas leader was in the tents? Are you that gullible?
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I don't know what situation you're referring to, specifically.
RaiGuy said:
You're also fine with them starving the whole population? Other aid groups have tried to enter but have been barred. However, you believe the Israeli excuses over and over again.
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No. I added a line saying that I thought Israel should allow in non-UNRWA provided aid though, again, if Hamas didn't insist on wrongly holding Israeli civilians, Israel wouldn't be trying to leverage Palestinian civilians to get them back.

But, you're continued concern for only one side of the equation, the terrorist side, is noted.
 
superrific said:
Neither side wants that. Maybe some extremists on both sides, but the whole organizations? No. Not even close.

It's impossible to look at the actual facts on the ground and come away with an understanding that there is anything but perfect equivalence between the sides. This didn't start in 2023. Gaza was illegally blockaded for a decade and a half, with gross human rights violations committed by the Israelis.

Again, why does everything have to be black and white for you guys? Is it really hard for you to comprehend that there are no good guys in a conflict like this. If Israel was good, the situation would have been resolved long ago. Same with Hamas.
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How similar in "goodness" do you thing Hamas and Israel are? Scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being Hitler-esque and 10 being Mother Theresa?
 
superrific said:
In my view, this is the worst of all.

I mean, starvation of a civilian population has been verboten for centuries. It's long been considered a human rights violation, even before the idea of human rights was really even a thing.
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All Hamas has to do is release the hostages.... It's literally that easy. Why wouldn't they to get food to their citizens?
 
ZenMode said:
How similar in "goodness" do you thing Hamas and Israel are? Scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being Hitler-esque and 10 being Mother Theresa?
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I don't normally weigh in on this conflict but this is actually an interesting question. On 10/7/23, I would have put Israel at a 4 and Hamas at a 2. On 10/9/23, I would have put Israel at a 5 and Hamas at a 1. After the past 18 months, I'd put both Hamas and Israel at 1. Talk about squandering your lead. I'm actually considering whether GWB died a few years ago and was reincarnated as Bibi.
 
lawtig02 said:
I don't normally weigh in on this conflict but this is actually an interesting question. On 10/7/23, I would have put Israel at a 4 and Hamas at a 2. On 10/9/23, I would have put Israel at a 5 and Hamas at a 1. After the past 18 months, I'd put both Hamas and Israel at 1. Talk about squandering your lead. I'm actually considering whether GWB died a few years ago and was reincarnated as Bibi.
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"On 10/7/23, I would have put Israel at a 4 and Hamas at a 2"

lol :rolleyes:
 
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ZenMode said:
All Hamas has to do is release the hostages.... It's literally that easy. Why wouldn't they to get food to their citizens?
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They were releasing them as part of the ceasefire and Netanyahu broke it. He has turned down multiple deals to have them released. If you still believe it's about the hostages, I don't know what to tell you. Also, why don't you care about the Palestinian hostages that Israel has been even before Oct 7th? They label them as prisoners, but the majority have not been charged with a crime and many of them are children.
 
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