Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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Callatoroy said:
Did you read my first comment in response to Dr Bob? I was very critical of what happened. I’m not defending trump’s actions today. I have moved beyond that. There are some things that are non starters for any hope of a peace deal. You have to know that. Putin will never agree to 2 things. NATO and pulling back to the original border. Crimea and donbass are now part of Russia. It is a win for Ukraine if it ends now. They will have the world’s admiration. We will provide security by our presence in Ukraine and generate billions for Ukraine from their mineral deposits that they can’t get to now to rebuild. All of that is a good deal for Ukraine and the US.

We might be the mighty USA but we are equaled by a China Russia alliance. Trump has to peel Putin away from China as much as possible. Our biggest geopolitical threat is no longer Russia. It’s China and adding Russia to that is a monster we don’t want to face. Trump playing hardball with Putin just drives him more into china’s arms. This isn’t just about Russia any longer. Russia has been neutered by the war and it will take a decade for Russia to recover. Trump needs to end the war for Putin because Putin can’t do it without trump. Trump needs to lift sanctions on Russia and get them back into the G8 because they aren’t an immediate threat unless paired with China. We can contain Russia by our building and occupying infrastructure in Ukraine. That is the reality trump is faced with. We need those minerals and Ukraine needs us there. That is the solution that can be achieved now and is a win for the US and Ukraine and a loss for Russia on the world stage.
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Laughable and embarrassingly naive. Read Julia Davis' post above.

China, Iran, NK, terrorists, and evil people worldwide are only encouraged. Trump has the strategic abilities of a 5 year old. He's not an Orange Richard Nixon who actually hada high intellect and strategic acument Nixon' was paranoid as hell and didn't like people that much. He hit in the darkness in the Eisenower Office Building instead of the White House

Putin has the goods on Trump. The rest is a retribution and Airing of Grievances Tour.
 
nycfan said:


“… Appearing on Friday’s breaking news broadcast on channel Solovyov Live, political scientist Alexander Voskoboinikov noted that Trump “simply lured [Zelensky] to the White House for this meeting. I can’t explain it any other way. What happened there was a pre-planned operation that was meant to show the whole world that Americans are getting out of this situation. At least, this is what they are demonstrating.”

Host Sergey Karnaukhov giddily described these events as “incredible,” his voice trembling with excitement. He said, “Zelensky got what he deserved. This is his fate. The trial of history started before our very eyes.”

At the conclusion of the broadcast, the channel aired a new crowdfunded commercial that began broadcasting in late February. It started with the words, “We are one step away from victory. This is the moment of truth... It’s now or never.”

One day earlier, Zelensky’s Oval Office ambush was predicted by State Duma member Oleg Morozov on 60 Minutes, a state TV show. Morozov said that the meeting would be a lesson in humiliation, designed to condition Zelensky to capitulate to the United States—and later to Russia. The lawmaker said that the Ukrainian president was flying to America “to sign an act of capitulation,” referring to the rare earth mineral deal Trump was determined to get as a “payback” for previous aid to Ukraine. Describing Trump as Zelensky’s “Daddy,” Morozov predicted, “They will rub his nose into everything, like a messy puppy... Then he will sign whatever he is told to sign.” Host Evgeny Popov chimed in, “But first, Daddy will flog him.”

During the same show, Vitaly Tretyakov, Dean of the Higher School of Television at Moscow’s State University, praised Trump by explaining, “I really like what he is doing right now... I like his revolutionary approach... He did our job for us that we did not dare to do.”

Popov pointed out that Trump is strangling America’s friends and allies. Tretyakov noted, “He is pursuing policies that are beneficial for Russia.” He surmised, “With respect to Ukraine, he is ready to give Russia everything it wants to take.”

Russian experts and pundits repeatedly articulated that Moscow isn’t seeking peace but instead wants to conquer as much of Ukraine as possible.

They’ve explained that getting Zelensky out of the way is essential to achieve the Kremlin’s goal of subjugating the neighboring nation.

The Trump administration’s intent to force Ukraine into signing over its mineral rights was playing straight into the hands of the Russian propagandists.

They openly expressed their intent to use the one-sided deal to besmirch Zelensky as an “illegitimate” president who agreed to sign away Ukraine’s future, effectively turning generations of Ukrainians into indentured servants of the United States—all without obtaining any security guarantees.

Trump’s commentary about the urgent need for a wartime election was said to be a result of Vladimir Putin’s conversations with the American president and his special envoy, Steve Witkoff.

Top Kremlin propagandist Vladimir Solovyov said that the views of the Trump administration are in total alignment with the way things look from Moscow—and Friday’s debacle confirmed this yet again.“
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We'll see, but today's debacle appears to have backfired. However, Putin is simply counting on more chaos. Trump is itching to call "Marshall" Law.
 
Peter Baker:

“…what really seemed to get under Mr. Trump’s skin during the discussion-turned-donnybrook were Mr. Zelensky’s harsh words about President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia.

Mr. Trump, who had nothing but good things to say about the master of the Kremlin, seemed offended on his behalf and scolded Mr. Zelensky for hostility toward the man who had invaded his country.

“He hates us,” Mr. Zelensky told Mr. Trump, trying to explain that Mr. Putin was the aggressor, not the victim. “It’s not about me. He hates Ukrainians. He thinks we are not a nation.”

While Mr. Trump last week falsely said that Ukraine “started” the war, Mr. Zelensky made clear that the president had that exactly wrong.

“Putin began this war,” the Ukrainian leader said.

Mr. Trump did not concur, and proceeded to chide Mr. Zelensky for being mean. “It’s wonderful to speak badly about somebody else,” said Mr. Trump, scorn in his voice, “but I want to get it solved.”

Mr. Trump, who has been known to speak badly about plenty of somebody-elses, including Mr. Zelensky, whom he called a “dictator” just last week, offered no sympathy for the Ukrainian view.

“This is not a love match,” he said, making clear he considered Mr. Zelensky to blame. “This is why you’re in this situation.”

A few moments later, Mr. Zelensky again cited Mr. Putin’s role in the war and suggested that Mr. Trump was listening to the Russian leader too much. In response to Mr. Trump’s comment that Ukrainian cities were destroyed, Mr. Zelensky said no, they had survived despite Russian bombardment.

“Maybe it’s Putin who’s sharing this disinformation that he destroyed us,” Mr. Zelensky said.

Mr. Trump came to Mr. Putin’s defense. “He had to suffer through the Russia hoax,” he said, referring to the investigation during his first term into Russian interference on Mr. Trump’s behalf during the 2016 election. “I think that he wants to make a deal and he’d like to see an end.”

In fact, the investigation by the special counsel Robert S. Mueller III was no hoax and concluded definitively that Mr. Putin ordered an intelligence operation to tilt the election eight years ago to Mr. Trump. Although Mr. Mueller said in his final report in 2019 that “the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges,” he made clear that Mr. Trump’s campaign benefited from Russian assistance. …”

www.nytimes.com

In Showdown With Zelensky, Trump Takes Offense on Putin’s Behalf

Never in the past few decades at least has an American president engaged in such an angry, scathing attack on a visiting foreign leader in the Oval Office.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
NY times, another failing media news outlet. I wouldn't put much stock into what they say. I'd be more upset at the money sent to Ukraine.
 
nycfan said:
Peter Baker:

“…what really seemed to get under Mr. Trump’s skin during the discussion-turned-donnybrook were Mr. Zelensky’s harsh words about President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia.

Mr. Trump, who had nothing but good things to say about the master of the Kremlin, seemed offended on his behalf and scolded Mr. Zelensky for hostility toward the man who had invaded his country.

“He hates us,” Mr. Zelensky told Mr. Trump, trying to explain that Mr. Putin was the aggressor, not the victim. “It’s not about me. He hates Ukrainians. He thinks we are not a nation.”

While Mr. Trump last week falsely said that Ukraine “started” the war, Mr. Zelensky made clear that the president had that exactly wrong.

“Putin began this war,” the Ukrainian leader said.

Mr. Trump did not concur, and proceeded to chide Mr. Zelensky for being mean. “It’s wonderful to speak badly about somebody else,” said Mr. Trump, scorn in his voice, “but I want to get it solved.”

Mr. Trump, who has been known to speak badly about plenty of somebody-elses, including Mr. Zelensky, whom he called a “dictator” just last week, offered no sympathy for the Ukrainian view.

“This is not a love match,” he said, making clear he considered Mr. Zelensky to blame. “This is why you’re in this situation.”

A few moments later, Mr. Zelensky again cited Mr. Putin’s role in the war and suggested that Mr. Trump was listening to the Russian leader too much. In response to Mr. Trump’s comment that Ukrainian cities were destroyed, Mr. Zelensky said no, they had survived despite Russian bombardment.

“Maybe it’s Putin who’s sharing this disinformation that he destroyed us,” Mr. Zelensky said.

Mr. Trump came to Mr. Putin’s defense. “He had to suffer through the Russia hoax,” he said, referring to the investigation during his first term into Russian interference on Mr. Trump’s behalf during the 2016 election. “I think that he wants to make a deal and he’d like to see an end.”

In fact, the investigation by the special counsel Robert S. Mueller III was no hoax and concluded definitively that Mr. Putin ordered an intelligence operation to tilt the election eight years ago to Mr. Trump. Although Mr. Mueller said in his final report in 2019 that “the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges,” he made clear that Mr. Trump’s campaign benefited from Russian assistance. …”

www.nytimes.com

In Showdown With Zelensky, Trump Takes Offense on Putin’s Behalf

Never in the past few decades at least has an American president engaged in such an angry, scathing attack on a visiting foreign leader in the Oval Office.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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[Baker describes Zelensky’s lack of diplomatic instincts or willingness to soothe egos versus pragmatic blunt talk about being the leader of a country under siege]

“… But what was particularly striking in their exchange was how much Mr. Trump seemed insulted on Mr. Putin’s behalf. He has long been an open admirer of Mr. Putin and has rarely offered any criticism of his own. Just this week, he called Mr. Putin “smart” and “cunning,” and declined to call him a dictator even after calling Mr. Zelensky that.

“You want me to say really terrible things about Putin and then say, ‘Hi, Vladimir, how are we doing on the deal?’” Mr. Trump told Mr. Zelensky on Friday. “It doesn’t work that way.”

… “You see the hatred he’s got for Putin,” Mr. Trump said with a tone of indignation as cameras recorded the exchange. “It’s very tough for me to make a deal with that kind of hate. He’s got tremendous hatred. And I understand that. But I can tell you the other side’s not exactly in love with him either.”

He came back to Mr. Putin and the Russia investigation again near the end of the session, describing the Russian leader as if they had bonded through a shared ordeal.

“Putin went through a hell of a lot with me,” Mr. Trump said. “He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia.”

The affront to Mr. Putin seemed to stick with Mr. Trump. By evening, hours after tossing Mr. Zelensky out of the White House, Mr. Trump stopped to talk with reporters as he left for a weekend in Florida and again outlined his grievance with the Ukrainian president.

“He’s got to say, ‘I want to make peace,’” Mr. Trump said. “He doesn’t have to stand there and say about, ‘Putin this, Putin that,’ all negative things. He’s got to say, ‘I want to make peace.’”“
 
Callatoroy said:
Not start WW3. As you acknowledged, they aren’t in a position economically to keep waging war. The only way to stop Putin is
1) through worldwide sanctions which won’t happen because of China and others who buy Russia’s oil.
2) nato boundaries
3) internal strife within russia
4) Putin dying
5) The US’s presence in Ukraine helping mine rare earths

Continuing to give hundreds of billions in weapons won’t push Putin out of Ukraine. It will increase the chances Putin uses battlefield nukes though.
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Make no mistake, Russia and Putin are not stopping with Ukraine. However, they need to get through Ukraine with sufficient forces to continue pushing towards Putin's goals which is to seal the gaps into the Russian plains.

The point where Putin would be more likely to use battlefield nukes in Ukraine may already be past. The Russian Army is making slow gains and at some point they may actually break through and gobble up large swaths of territory. The bigger WW3/nuclear risk is if Russia takes over Ukraine without continued losses of men & equipment and Putin is able to turns attention to Poland.

In an open field, the combined NATO forces with absolute air superiority would have a significant chance to crush the Red Army. THEN Putin and the other hawks in Russia would be more likely to seriously turn to battlefield nukes which could lead to a general nuclear exchange. Having Russia bogged down in Ukraine is the absolute play to keep that scenario from coming to fruition.

What we should be looking for, and IMO what was the Biden game plan, is to run out the clock. Putin is old and there have been repeated rumors of health concerns (Parkinsons/neuro and cancer). Russia does not have an infinite number of resources, either equipment or manpower. If you can string this out, you have a chance of Russia bleeding out and withdrawing, best case. Alternative is that the Red Army is so battered from taking Ukraine that they cannot even consider initiating an offensive against Poland for a decade. The more time that passes, the greater the chance for Russia's current regime to age into a daisy field.

As unsavory as it is to say, Peace is just about the last thing that we should want to happen. We want the Red Army to batter itself on Ukrainian defenses for as long as they can hold out. A deal that ends up with Zelensky stepping out of office and possibly a Russia stooge taking over in Ukraine, stops the bleeding and gives Russia an opening to reconstitute its forces before it turns to Poland.
 
One unfortunate thing is that Zelensky would have likely wiped the floor with Trump if they shared the same native tongue.

The fact that they had to speak English gives Trump an advantage. Ironically being able to speak multiple language actually puts you at a bit of a disadvantage.
 
Callatoroy said:
Quote from ChileG: “I’m happy the world got to see what a buffoon Trump is. Why wouldn’t that make me happy?” Somebody….at least fucking ONE is honest enough to admit it. That isn’t zero and there are more who are to scared to own it.
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I guess sarcasm doesn’t come across too well in message boards.

My comment was more along the lines of: well, if Trump is going to fuck over the entire world anyway, at least the world got to see what a stupid, petulant child he (and JD Vance, for that matter) is on live TV. Perhaps that will sway sentiment more toward Ukraine, or away from MAGA.

The way Trump is handling Ukraine is 180 degrees from what would make me “happy.”
 
ZenMode said:
This may have already been pointed out, but I think Zelensky knows that Trump is a Putin fanboy and wasn't going to do the right thing, which is put the smack down on Russia. His only chance was to make the case in front of the media and the world and hopefully force Trump's hand.
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Yep, pretty sure Zel knows more about the true relationship between Trump and Putin then we do.
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
I don’t think it helps Putin. I think this has galvanized Europe and that is not good for Putin.

If Putin engineered this, I would say he overplayed his hand.
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Betting that the man with the thinnest skin in the world would commit US troops and weapons to helping Russia over vengeance with the worst case scenario being that the rest of the world abandons them as global leader is pretty win-win for Putin.
 
BlueSmoke said:
The history books are going to have to be revised to show Russia won the cold war.

MAGA World should be so proud of this accomplishment.
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It is sort of like the Rebels in the USA holding out over years and decades to regain power after the U.S. Civil War military hostilities ended via terrorism (like lynchings and the KKK) and political power used to establish apartheid of Jim Crow, eventually leading to national political power.

In both cases, there was a clear victor of the Civil War and the Cold War. But the bad guys keep fighting and the victors tend to be exhausted by the fight.
 
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