theel4life
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Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”
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Peter Baker:
“…what really seemed to get under Mr. Trump’s skin during the discussion-turned-donnybrook were Mr. Zelensky’s harsh words about President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia.
Mr. Trump, who had nothing but good things to say about the master of the Kremlin, seemed offended on his behalf and scolded Mr. Zelensky for hostility toward the man who had invaded his country.
“He hates us,” Mr. Zelensky told Mr. Trump, trying to explain that Mr. Putin was the aggressor, not the victim. “It’s not about me. He hates Ukrainians. He thinks we are not a nation.”
While Mr. Trump last week falsely said that Ukraine “started” the war, Mr. Zelensky made clear that the president had that exactly wrong.
“Putin began this war,” the Ukrainian leader said.
Mr. Trump did not concur, and proceeded to chide Mr. Zelensky for being mean. “It’s wonderful to speak badly about somebody else,” said Mr. Trump, scorn in his voice, “but I want to get it solved.”
Mr. Trump, who has been known to speak badly about plenty of somebody-elses, including Mr. Zelensky, whom he called a “dictator” just last week, offered no sympathy for the Ukrainian view.
“This is not a love match,” he said, making clear he considered Mr. Zelensky to blame. “This is why you’re in this situation.”
A few moments later, Mr. Zelensky again cited Mr. Putin’s role in the war and suggested that Mr. Trump was listening to the Russian leader too much. In response to Mr. Trump’s comment that Ukrainian cities were destroyed, Mr. Zelensky said no, they had survived despite Russian bombardment.
“Maybe it’s Putin who’s sharing this disinformation that he destroyed us,” Mr. Zelensky said.
Mr. Trump came to Mr. Putin’s defense. “He had to suffer through the Russia hoax,” he said, referring to the investigation during his first term into Russian interference on Mr. Trump’s behalf during the 2016 election. “I think that he wants to make a deal and he’d like to see an end.”
In fact, the investigation by the special counsel Robert S. Mueller III was no hoax and concluded definitively that Mr. Putin ordered an intelligence operation to tilt the election eight years ago to Mr. Trump. Although Mr. Mueller said in his final report in 2019 that “the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges,” he made clear that Mr. Trump’s campaign benefited from Russian assistance. …”
www.nytimes.com
“…what really seemed to get under Mr. Trump’s skin during the discussion-turned-donnybrook were Mr. Zelensky’s harsh words about President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia.
Mr. Trump, who had nothing but good things to say about the master of the Kremlin, seemed offended on his behalf and scolded Mr. Zelensky for hostility toward the man who had invaded his country.
“He hates us,” Mr. Zelensky told Mr. Trump, trying to explain that Mr. Putin was the aggressor, not the victim. “It’s not about me. He hates Ukrainians. He thinks we are not a nation.”
While Mr. Trump last week falsely said that Ukraine “started” the war, Mr. Zelensky made clear that the president had that exactly wrong.
“Putin began this war,” the Ukrainian leader said.
Mr. Trump did not concur, and proceeded to chide Mr. Zelensky for being mean. “It’s wonderful to speak badly about somebody else,” said Mr. Trump, scorn in his voice, “but I want to get it solved.”
Mr. Trump, who has been known to speak badly about plenty of somebody-elses, including Mr. Zelensky, whom he called a “dictator” just last week, offered no sympathy for the Ukrainian view.
“This is not a love match,” he said, making clear he considered Mr. Zelensky to blame. “This is why you’re in this situation.”
A few moments later, Mr. Zelensky again cited Mr. Putin’s role in the war and suggested that Mr. Trump was listening to the Russian leader too much. In response to Mr. Trump’s comment that Ukrainian cities were destroyed, Mr. Zelensky said no, they had survived despite Russian bombardment.
“Maybe it’s Putin who’s sharing this disinformation that he destroyed us,” Mr. Zelensky said.
Mr. Trump came to Mr. Putin’s defense. “He had to suffer through the Russia hoax,” he said, referring to the investigation during his first term into Russian interference on Mr. Trump’s behalf during the 2016 election. “I think that he wants to make a deal and he’d like to see an end.”
In fact, the investigation by the special counsel Robert S. Mueller III was no hoax and concluded definitively that Mr. Putin ordered an intelligence operation to tilt the election eight years ago to Mr. Trump. Although Mr. Mueller said in his final report in 2019 that “the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges,” he made clear that Mr. Trump’s campaign benefited from Russian assistance. …”
In Showdown With Zelensky, Trump Takes Offense on Putin’s Behalf
Never in the past few decades at least has an American president engaged in such an angry, scathing attack on a visiting foreign leader in the Oval Office.
Silence Dogood
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NY times, another failing media news outlet. I wouldn't put much stock into what they say. I'd be more upset at the money sent to Ukraine.
Silence Dogood
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Isn't that the guy who loves wars?
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[Baker describes Zelensky’s lack of diplomatic instincts or willingness to soothe egos versus pragmatic blunt talk about being the leader of a country under siege]Peter Baker:
“…what really seemed to get under Mr. Trump’s skin during the discussion-turned-donnybrook were Mr. Zelensky’s harsh words about President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia.
Mr. Trump, who had nothing but good things to say about the master of the Kremlin, seemed offended on his behalf and scolded Mr. Zelensky for hostility toward the man who had invaded his country.
“He hates us,” Mr. Zelensky told Mr. Trump, trying to explain that Mr. Putin was the aggressor, not the victim. “It’s not about me. He hates Ukrainians. He thinks we are not a nation.”
While Mr. Trump last week falsely said that Ukraine “started” the war, Mr. Zelensky made clear that the president had that exactly wrong.
“Putin began this war,” the Ukrainian leader said.
Mr. Trump did not concur, and proceeded to chide Mr. Zelensky for being mean. “It’s wonderful to speak badly about somebody else,” said Mr. Trump, scorn in his voice, “but I want to get it solved.”
Mr. Trump, who has been known to speak badly about plenty of somebody-elses, including Mr. Zelensky, whom he called a “dictator” just last week, offered no sympathy for the Ukrainian view.
“This is not a love match,” he said, making clear he considered Mr. Zelensky to blame. “This is why you’re in this situation.”
A few moments later, Mr. Zelensky again cited Mr. Putin’s role in the war and suggested that Mr. Trump was listening to the Russian leader too much. In response to Mr. Trump’s comment that Ukrainian cities were destroyed, Mr. Zelensky said no, they had survived despite Russian bombardment.
“Maybe it’s Putin who’s sharing this disinformation that he destroyed us,” Mr. Zelensky said.
Mr. Trump came to Mr. Putin’s defense. “He had to suffer through the Russia hoax,” he said, referring to the investigation during his first term into Russian interference on Mr. Trump’s behalf during the 2016 election. “I think that he wants to make a deal and he’d like to see an end.”
In fact, the investigation by the special counsel Robert S. Mueller III was no hoax and concluded definitively that Mr. Putin ordered an intelligence operation to tilt the election eight years ago to Mr. Trump. Although Mr. Mueller said in his final report in 2019 that “the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges,” he made clear that Mr. Trump’s campaign benefited from Russian assistance. …”
In Showdown With Zelensky, Trump Takes Offense on Putin’s Behalf
Never in the past few decades at least has an American president engaged in such an angry, scathing attack on a visiting foreign leader in the Oval Office.
“… But what was particularly striking in their exchange was how much Mr. Trump seemed insulted on Mr. Putin’s behalf. He has long been an open admirer of Mr. Putin and has rarely offered any criticism of his own. Just this week, he called Mr. Putin “smart” and “cunning,” and declined to call him a dictator even after calling Mr. Zelensky that.
“You want me to say really terrible things about Putin and then say, ‘Hi, Vladimir, how are we doing on the deal?’” Mr. Trump told Mr. Zelensky on Friday. “It doesn’t work that way.”
… “You see the hatred he’s got for Putin,” Mr. Trump said with a tone of indignation as cameras recorded the exchange. “It’s very tough for me to make a deal with that kind of hate. He’s got tremendous hatred. And I understand that. But I can tell you the other side’s not exactly in love with him either.”
He came back to Mr. Putin and the Russia investigation again near the end of the session, describing the Russian leader as if they had bonded through a shared ordeal.
“Putin went through a hell of a lot with me,” Mr. Trump said. “He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia.”
The affront to Mr. Putin seemed to stick with Mr. Trump. By evening, hours after tossing Mr. Zelensky out of the White House, Mr. Trump stopped to talk with reporters as he left for a weekend in Florida and again outlined his grievance with the Ukrainian president.
“He’s got to say, ‘I want to make peace,’” Mr. Trump said. “He doesn’t have to stand there and say about, ‘Putin this, Putin that,’ all negative things. He’s got to say, ‘I want to make peace.’”“
theel4life
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Not sure . But one thing I do know is Trump loves the taste of Putins dick.
Make no mistake, Russia and Putin are not stopping with Ukraine. However, they need to get through Ukraine with sufficient forces to continue pushing towards Putin's goals which is to seal the gaps into the Russian plains.
The point where Putin would be more likely to use battlefield nukes in Ukraine may already be past. The Russian Army is making slow gains and at some point they may actually break through and gobble up large swaths of territory. The bigger WW3/nuclear risk is if Russia takes over Ukraine without continued losses of men & equipment and Putin is able to turns attention to Poland.
In an open field, the combined NATO forces with absolute air superiority would have a significant chance to crush the Red Army. THEN Putin and the other hawks in Russia would be more likely to seriously turn to battlefield nukes which could lead to a general nuclear exchange. Having Russia bogged down in Ukraine is the absolute play to keep that scenario from coming to fruition.
What we should be looking for, and IMO what was the Biden game plan, is to run out the clock. Putin is old and there have been repeated rumors of health concerns (Parkinsons/neuro and cancer). Russia does not have an infinite number of resources, either equipment or manpower. If you can string this out, you have a chance of Russia bleeding out and withdrawing, best case. Alternative is that the Red Army is so battered from taking Ukraine that they cannot even consider initiating an offensive against Poland for a decade. The more time that passes, the greater the chance for Russia's current regime to age into a daisy field.
As unsavory as it is to say, Peace is just about the last thing that we should want to happen. We want the Red Army to batter itself on Ukrainian defenses for as long as they can hold out. A deal that ends up with Zelensky stepping out of office and possibly a Russia stooge taking over in Ukraine, stops the bleeding and gives Russia an opening to reconstitute its forces before it turns to Poland.
ChapelHillSooner
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One unfortunate thing is that Zelensky would have likely wiped the floor with Trump if they shared the same native tongue.
The fact that they had to speak English gives Trump an advantage. Ironically being able to speak multiple language actually puts you at a bit of a disadvantage.
The fact that they had to speak English gives Trump an advantage. Ironically being able to speak multiple language actually puts you at a bit of a disadvantage.
ChileG
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I guess sarcasm doesn’t come across too well in message boards.
My comment was more along the lines of: well, if Trump is going to fuck over the entire world anyway, at least the world got to see what a stupid, petulant child he (and JD Vance, for that matter) is on live TV. Perhaps that will sway sentiment more toward Ukraine, or away from MAGA.
The way Trump is handling Ukraine is 180 degrees from what would make me “happy.”
Yep, pretty sure Zel knows more about the true relationship between Trump and Putin then we do.
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Betting that the man with the thinnest skin in the world would commit US troops and weapons to helping Russia over vengeance with the worst case scenario being that the rest of the world abandons them as global leader is pretty win-win for Putin.
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It is sort of like the Rebels in the USA holding out over years and decades to regain power after the U.S. Civil War military hostilities ended via terrorism (like lynchings and the KKK) and political power used to establish apartheid of Jim Crow, eventually leading to national political power.
In both cases, there was a clear victor of the Civil War and the Cold War. But the bad guys keep fighting and the victors tend to be exhausted by the fight.
The biggest learning moment from both is that Americans don't have learning moments.
