The sad case of Imane Khelif

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NYCBlueBlood said:
Take a look at Alabama's incoming freshmen football class. You think it's fair or safe for boys to have been playing football against them last season?
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We as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.
 
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gtyellowjacket said:
Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.
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Daniel Webber Billythekid GIF by MGM+
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.
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Why is safety in there? We have separate mens's and women's 100m dashes, and that's clearly not for "safety".

If fact "fairness" provides 100% of the explanatory power for the separation of men's and women's sports, adding in safety is wholey unnecessary.

But then again, if you didn't add it in, you wouldn't have it as a handy hook to hang your bigotry off of.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.
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okay - so, if you are comfortable with outlier men and boys participating in men's and boys' sports despite the safety and fairness issues they present, then why can the same not be true of outlier girls and women? there are probably only about as many trans girls and women who want to get into sports as there are Zions.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.
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I'm confused. I thought you were the one who wanted to change the rules to segment women based on testosterone level. I'd like to remind you, we have this arbitrarily decided method (which you seem to feel is the sacrosanct) to determine the balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with. Are you telling me it's not actually sacrosanct.
 
akillesheel said:
okay - so, if you are comfortable with outlier men and boys participating in men's and boys' sports despite the safety and fairness issues they present, then why can the same not be true of outlier girls and women? there are probably only about as many trans girls and women who want to get into sports as there are Zions.
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Because while mentally they may be girls or women, physically they are not girls or women, even as outliers.
 
NYCBlueBlood said:
I'm confused. I thought you were the one who wanted to change the rules to segment women based on testosterone level. I'd like to remind you, we have this arbitrarily decided method (which you seem to feel is the sacrosanct) to determine the balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with. Are you telling me it's not actually sacrosanct.
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What method are you referring to?
 
gtyellowjacket said:
What method are you referring to?
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gtyellowjacket said:


Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.
 
NYCBlueBlood said:
gtyellowjacket said:


Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.
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If you're referring to the segmentation of men's versus women being sacrosanct, yeah, pretty much.

Once again, I support other sexed women competing in women's events at the high school level as long as safety does not become an issue to provide them socialization and other benefits that sports provide. I don't think championships or state records should apply.

I think as the ages increase and the levels get higher, the fairness and safety for the vast majority of women begin to outweigh the benefits for the few other sexed women.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Because while mentally they may be girls or women, physically they are not girls or women, even as outliers.
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your rhetoric is creeping out of what we have been charitably interpreting as genuine desire to treat a hot-button issue with nuance and into garden-variety trans exclusionary nonsense. trans girls are girls and trans women are women, in ways that reach well beyond just "mentally." I also recommend you stop using the terminology of "other sexed" women if you want to be taken seriously on this topic going forward.
 
akillesheel said:
your rhetoric is creeping out of what we have been charitably interpreting as genuine desire to treat a hot-button issue with nuance and into garden-variety trans exclusionary nonsense. trans girls are girls and trans women are women, in ways that reach well beyond just "mentally." I also recommend you stop using the terminology of "other sexed" women if you want to be taken seriously on this topic going forward.
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Are you hanging up on semantics now?

I'm using other sexed to include trans women and trans girls but also women like the boxers in question who have a y-Chromosome but female genitalia. Stop trying to come up with a silly argument and focus On the best policy for women's sports.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
What method are you referring to?
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Algerian Olympic boxer Imane Khelif is female. Based on your logic, she should play sports as a female. We do not segment sports based on "weight or height or hair color or nose length," nor do we do it based on testosterone levels. Your logic is clear as day. Just as Ty Haywood, the 6'5, 285 lbs offensive tackle for Alabama next year. He is a boy and should therefore play with boys. Imane is a girl and should therefore play with girls. This is your logic, not mine.
 
NYCBlueBlood said:
Algerian Olympic boxer Imane Khelif is female. Based on your logic, she should play sports as a female. We do not segment sports based on "weight or height or hair color or nose length," nor do we do it based on testosterone levels. Your logic is clear as day. Just as Ty Haywood, the 6'5, 285 lbs offensive tackle for Alabama next year. He is a boy and should therefore play with boys. Imane is a girl and should therefore play with girls. This is your logic, not mine.
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I think its debatable she is female based on criteria used for female sports. And some governing bodies agree with me. Ms Khelif would not have been allowed to compete in the most recent Olympics if her chosen sport have been track and field or swimming. I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as you imply.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I think its debatable she is female based on criteria used for female sports. And some governing bodies agree with me. Ms Khelif would not have been allowed to compete in the most recent Olympics if her chosen sport have been track and field or swimming. I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as you imply.
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There is one governing body that agrees with you, and it's controlled by Russia and won't say exactly what it determined.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I think its debatable she is female based on criteria used for female sports.
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Well, then, you're not respecting the distinction that you said was sacrosanct. You're adding a new gloss, but that gloss would apply equally to men who are much bigger and stronger than other men. That's why you are getting dunked on here. You are espousing a principle that you refuse to apply consistently.
 
superrific said:
Well, then, you're not respecting the distinction that you said was sacrosanct. You're adding a new gloss, but that gloss would apply equally to men who are much bigger and stronger than other men. That's why you are getting dunked on here. You are espousing a principle that you refuse to apply consistently.
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If some 16 year-old boy on his varsity football team gets crushed into a lifeless ball by Ty Haywood, the 6'5, 285 lbs offensive tackle who will be a freshman at Alabama next year... that's ok, as they are both boys. But if some poor girl gets hurt fighting for the basketball with another girl who happens to have elevated testosterone... that we need to throw down and do anything to stop from happening.

This just reeks of a paternalistic, misogynistic culture where boys must go out and explore the world, but girls must be protected from the outside world at all costs.
 
Well, I think that many comments on this thread illustrate a key point about politics today: In many "controversial" topics we should learn to trust science and medicine and, in a broader sense, expertise.,
The problem we face today is, in simplest terms, that MAGA people are ignorant. They do not know things and they seemingly do not know, or care, that they do not know things.
I think we would be better off as a society if folks would dispense with the foolish notion that their "Opinion" automatically matters. Far better, when we are discussing things like pregnancy and abortion, vaccines, biology and biological sex, transsexuals and physical strength etc. if MAGA folks would simply accept that they lack knowledge and education and should trust expertise rather than their "opinions," [And, as a corollary, googling far right web pages is not the same as "research."]
 
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