The sad case of Imane Khelif

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ZenMode said:
I don't know the correct way to make it happen, but for the sake of safety and fairness, we will have to figure out a way to keep those with high testosterone levels from competing against those with low testosterone levels.
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Only because you tried to move the goalposts with this post. Imane Khelif is a victim of this “broader topic.”
 
Rock said:


I will bet anyone here a buffalo nickel that she names him in a lawsuit by the end of next week. Rightly so.
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I had a conversation this weekend about Imane that crossed into the "facts be damned, I have my opinion" a la Trump cultists zone. I mentioned that I felt bad for Imane and a (Trumpy) friend said, "You mean that man?" I explained that she has a female body and was raised female, but had a Y chromosome. He looked at me like I had three heads. At first he said he didn't believe it, that it sounds like something a woke agency like the Olympics would make up. By the end of a 5-10 minute back and forth, he just kind of blew it off saying he didn't have a dog in the fight - like putting your fingers in your ears yelling, "I cant hear you! I cant hear you!" Then he went into doping and how crooked professional athletic leagues are. What I didn't hear was, "That's interesting. I feel bad for her too." Or even, "Wow. I'll have to look into that." I have my opinion, facts be damned!
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I think you need to keep the sport safe and fair for women while balancing the real benefits that otherly sexed women get from participating in sports. I'd lean towards younger other sexed competing so they can have those social interactions while letting women in the more common hormonal range compete.

So I'm thinking something like:

-high school, let anyone compete and win championships but no state records. Delicate minds given the opportunity to interact socially and gain confidence in a time when a fair number go through some very difficult times.

-college, all women can compete in non-contact and non-team sports but no championships and no records. No competing in team sports because the other women on her team won't be able to compete for championships. No contact sports for safety reasons.

-international competitions, no other sexed women can compete
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The issue I see is that, in most every situation where a biological male is competing against a biological females, You are all but guaranteeing that a biological female is going to lose her spot, whether it be in the starting lineup, on the bench or on the team.
 
ZenMode said:
The issue I see is that, in most every situation where a biological male is competing against a biological females, You are all but guaranteeing that a biological female is going to lose her spot, whether it be in the starting lineup, on the bench or on the team.
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Good thing there are already rules in place for that scenario. Welcome to 2024.
 
farce said:
Imane Khelif is a biological female.
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What is your definition of a biological female?

I think the evidence is pretty clear that she is intersexed and does not fit neatly into traditional binary gender categories.
 
Calheel said:
What is your definition of a biological female?

I think the evidence is pretty clear that she is intersexed and does not fit neatly into traditional binary gender categories.
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It would be somewhat ironic if the Imane Khelif saga is what finally brings conservatives around to accepting gender fluidity.
 
Calheel said:
What is your definition of a biological female?

I think the evidence is pretty clear that she is intersexed and does not fit neatly into traditional binary gender categories.
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Show us this evidence!

There is none. Stop believing Russian propaganda. You’re making up stuff to suit your agenda.
 
Calheel said:
What is your definition of a biological female?

I think the evidence is pretty clear that she is intersexed and does not fit neatly into traditional binary gender categories.
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But how do we detect intersex individuals if male and female sex organs aren’t present? Should we require DNA testing for all female athletes to make sure girls sporting higher than normal testosterone or with a Y chromosome floating around don’t endanger others? Is it really something we need to concern ourselves with? I wonder if all WNBA player have been tested?
 
ZenMode said:
The issue I see is that, in most every situation where a biological male is competing against a biological females, You are all but guaranteeing that a biological female is going to lose her spot, whether it be in the starting lineup, on the bench or on the team.
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I agree, and it will disappoint a few girls but I just think it will be worse for the other sexed girl who have a much higher incidence of suicide. I'm ready to do that for a high schooler but the older you get, I hope she would be better able to adjust.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I agree, and it will disappoint a few girls but I just think it will be worse for the other sexed girl who have a much higher incidence of suicide. I'm ready to do that for a high schooler but the older you get, I hope she would be better able to adjust.
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What’s is an other sexed girl?
 
farce said:
But how do we detect intersex individuals if male and female sex organs aren’t present? Should we require DNA testing for all female athletes to make sure girls sporting higher than normal testosterone or with a Y chromosome floating around don’t endanger others? Is it really something we need to concern ourselves with? I wonder if all WNBA player have been tested?
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Those are all separate and legitimate questions from the one I asked you.

You said she was a "biological" female. My question to you is how do you define biological female? You are the one assigning her to a traditional binary gender category.
 
Calheel said:
Those are all separate and legitimate questions from the one I asked you.

You said she was a "biological" female. My question to you is how do you define biological female? You are the one assigning her to a traditional binary gender category.
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That was in response to Zen Mode trying to move the discussion away from the Imane Khelif situation to biological males playing women’s sports.
 
haroldminer said:
Show us this evidence!

There is none. Stop believing Russian propaganda. You’re making up stuff to suit your agenda.
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Is it possible the IBA is making this all up, and she didn't take two chromosome tests, both of which indicated she was not XX? Sure, that is possible. Here is the letter the IBA sent to the Olympic committee.


Now, the IBA is not well regarded. So could the IBA be making up the facts set forth in that letter? I guess it could, but why? What is the IBA's incentive to say an Algerian boxer failed the chromosome test? The IBA has a rule that you must be XX to box in the female category. Is that a good rule? Probably not. But that is their rule.

There are multiple issues raised by this topic. But if you want to go down the IBA is bad, Russia is bad, so Imane is definitely XX rabbit hole, go for it. I think the public record evidence on this issue suggests that she is properly classified as "intersex."

This is not a new issue. DSD/intersex issues have been a hot button issue for female sports for decades. There are fairness issues on both sides. And different regulatory bodies handle the issues differently.

With Imane, I think it is clear that she does not fit neatly into a traditional biological male or biological female category. There are millions of people like her throughout the world. Just saying that she was assigned "female at birth" so she is a biological female and that is the end of the inquiry is a simplistic way to handle a complex issue.
 
farce said:
That was in response to Zen Mode trying to move the discussion away from the Imane Khelif situation to biological males playing women’s sports.
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Fair enough. But you are still not answering my question. How do you define a biological female? It is not a simple question.
 
I remember when "What is a woman?" was a question asked by conservatives as a trap for liberals to prove how insane the world was. They can't even define a woman, how insane is that?!?! Now here we are with conservatives completely baffled when it comes to that question.

It's pretty clear that the conservative answer to Walsh's trap question is "Someone who gives me an uncomplicated boner."
 
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