The sad case of Imane Khelif

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Calheel said:
Fair enough. But you are still not answering my question. How do you define a biological female? It is not a simple question.
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I don’t know. I shouldn’t have said it like that. I was focused on the two women in the fight, not the broader question. I should have said “but Imane Khelif is not a biological male.” I was focused on the two women in the fight, not the broader question.
 
farce said:
I don’t know. I shouldn’t have said it like that. I was focused on the two women in the fight, not the broader question. I should have said “but Imane Khelif is not a biological male.” I was focused on the two women in the fight, not the broader question.
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Gotcha.

And I agree with you that Imane is not a biological male, no matter what the TERFs or IBA say. She is in that awkward middle area that doesn’t really fit our binary world.
 
Calheel said:
Is it possible the IBA is making this all up, and she didn't take two chromosome tests, both of which indicated she was not XX? Sure, that is possible. Here is the letter the IBA sent to the Olympic committee.


Now, the IBA is not well regarded. So could the IBA be making up the facts set forth in that letter? I guess it could, but why? What is the IBA's incentive to say an Algerian boxer failed the chromosome test? The IBA has a rule that you must be XX to box in the female category. Is that a good rule? Probably not. But that is their rule.

There are multiple issues raised by this topic. But if you want to go down the IBA is bad, Russia is bad, so Imane is definitely XX rabbit hole, go for it. I think the public record evidence on this issue suggests that she is properly classified as "intersex."

This is not a new issue. DSD/intersex issues have been a hot button issue for female sports for decades. There are fairness issues on both sides. And different regulatory bodies handle the issues differently.

With Imane, I think it is clear that she does not fit neatly into a traditional biological male or biological female category. There are millions of people like her throughout the world. Just saying that she was assigned "female at birth" so she is a biological female and that is the end of the inquiry is a simplistic way to handle a complex issue.
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Sorry. I don’t accept the IBA statement without evidence. I don’t accept Russian propaganda
 
haroldminer said:
Sorry. I don’t accept the IBA statement without evidence. I don’t accept Russian propaganda
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So what is your theory as to why the IBA made up test results as to this one particular Algerian boxer? What’s the Putin angle on this one?
 
haroldminer said:
I’m not your google.

And who cares? It is as if you people have forgotten that sports are supposed to be fun. I’m tired of the genital police. How about everyone goes back to minding their own fucking business
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Few states even have laws for college. I'm guessing that many don't have rules for junior high/high school.

Without testosterone requirements, the only person having fun will be the male who is likely to dominate the sport.
 
ZenMode said:
Few states even have laws for college. I'm guessing that many don't have rules for junior high/high school.

Without testosterone requirements, the only person having fun will be the male who is likely to dominate the sport.
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Again. Testosterone testing and medication is not the cure all you believe it is.

And where are high schools and middle schools going to get the laboratory budget to test the millions of girls playing sport? It is completely unworkable. Or is your idea just to test the manly-looking ones? Because that will create far more bullying issues.
 
ZenMode said:
Few states even have laws for college. I'm guessing that many don't have rules for junior high/high school.

Without testosterone requirements, the only person having fun will be the male who is likely to dominate the sport.
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Who are these males you keep referring to?
 
Calheel said:
Again. Testosterone testing and medication is not the cure all you believe it is.

And where are high schools and middle schools going to get the laboratory budget to test the millions of girls playing sport? It is completely unworkable. Or is your idea just to test the manly-looking ones? Because that will create far more bullying issues.
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I don't believe they are a cure all, but with a low enough T level, for a long enough time, it can somewhat level the playing field.

I think, at the very least, you should test those that have openly acknowledge that they are transgender.

For right now, it is not an issue. If it ever becomes a widespread occurrence, schools will have to figure out something.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't believe they are a cure all, but with a low enough T level, for a long enough time, it can somewhat level the playing field.

I think, at the very least, you should test those that have openly acknowledge that they are transgender.

For right now, it is not an issue. If it ever becomes a widespread occurrence, schools will have to figure out something.
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If it is not an issue now, why are you bringing it up?
 
Calheel said:
Let me try another way.
If you don’t think it is a problem now, why are you suggesting something needs to be done about it?
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I don't follow the topic but, given that states are passing legislation to address it, it must be something worth discussing, right?
 
ZenMode said:
I don't follow the topic but, given that states are passing legislation to address it, it must be something worth discussing, right?
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No state has passed any legislation to deal with AFAB people like Imane Khelif -- at least not as far as I know.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I think you need to keep the sport safe and fair for women while balancing the real benefits that otherly sexed women get from participating in sports. I'd lean towards younger other sexed competing so they can have those social interactions while letting women in the more common hormonal range compete.

So I'm thinking something like:

-high school, let anyone compete and win championships but no state records. Delicate minds given the opportunity to interact socially and gain confidence in a time when a fair number go through some very difficult times.

-college, all women can compete in non-contact and non-team sports but no championships and no records. No competing in team sports because the other women on her team won't be able to compete for championships. No contact sports for safety reasons.

-international competitions, no other sexed women can compete
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How do you propose to administer this? Compulsory genetic testing for every participant nationwide in girls high school and college sports?
 
ZenMode said:
Few states even have laws for college. I'm guessing that many don't have rules for junior high/high school.

Without testosterone requirements, the only person having fun will be the male who is likely to dominate the sport.
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Are you going to administer testosterone tests to everyone who plays high school girls sports? Who’s paying for that? And does anyone who has daughters think that’s a remotely good idea?
 
rodoheel said:
How do you propose to administer this? Compulsory genetic testing for every participant nationwide in girls high school and college sports?
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No. I think it would have to be the eyeball test and then district or conference testing. Put a procedure in place to keep it private and let it be an administrator making the call on testing instead of some jackhole girls lacrosse coach hoping to win a game by getting in a sophomore's head. Hopefully its the tiniest number of individuals.

Not perfect and obviously you can pick it apart but the goal is to keep girls playing safely and fairly.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
No. I think it would have to be the eyeball test and then district or conference testing. Put a procedure in place to keep it private and let it be an administrator making the call on testing instead of some jackhole girls lacrosse coach hoping to win a game by getting in a sophomore's head. Hopefully its the tiniest number of individuals.

Not perfect and obviously you can pick it apart but the goal is to keep girls playing safely and fairly.
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I mean I can pick it apart because it's easy to pick apart. This is a recipe for absolute disaster - lawsuits, scandals, people using it for the exact kind of gamesmanship you admit is possible. It's an absolutely nightmare to administer and will cost way more time and money than can possibly be worth it to "catch" the one in a million scenario of some sort of "Juwanna Mann"-style bad actor. And perhaps most importantly, there will be so much collateral damage to the psyches of young girls and their parents - the people anti-trans bullies always claim to be advocating for - along the way. I mean "eyeball test"? Are you serious? Can you imagine telling your daughter "you're suspended from sports because some parent/coach/admin thinks you look like a man and the only way to get back on the team is to submit to invasive tests to prove you're really female"?

This is much like conservatives who want to drug-test welfare recipients or go to extreme measures to catch people committing "welfare fraud." It is never even remotely worth any benefit from it, either financially or with respect to the very real human cost. But to many conservatives the thought of one person getting some sort of hypothetical unfair advantage is so galling that they will condone all sorts of insane collateral damage to satisfy themselves that no one is "cheating the system."
 
I would bet a LOT of elite female athletes have more testosterone than the average female, making them bigger and stronger and thus better at most sports.

Same way for men. I am guessing LeBron James has a lot more than I do. At some point the lines become arbitrary unless we are going to have a lot more than just “men’s” and “women’s” categories.

Right wingers have been arguing forever that you CANNOT change your gender assigned at birth, and now a ton of those same people say these 2 olympians assigned female at birth due to the genitalia they have are NOT female. And that’s what’s weird.

So if it’s not that simple that you can pull someone’s pants down to see what they are, then how are you going to define this?
 
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