The sad case of Imane Khelif

[superrific]

It sucks, but this is where empathy, IMO is a weakness and leads people to do the wrong thing. The wrong thing being allowing a male, in the ways being a male matter athletically, to beat up on females.

You are too clueless to realize that your "wrong thing" is based on empathy. It's just your selective empathy, which is how all empathy-deniers operate. Their empathy is just reason; others' empathy is weakness.

 

[ZenMode]

You are too clueless to realize that your "wrong thing" is based on empathy. It's just your selective empathy, which is how all empathy-deniers operate. Their empathy is just reason; others' empathy is weakness.

Nope. My position is based on objective, biological information.

The same reason you wouldn't support a 20-year-old playing football against 10-year-olds is why I don't support males competing against females.

 

[StrangePackage]

Nope. My position is based on objective, biological information.

Your position is warmed over misogyny, and nothing more.

 

[superrific]

The same reason you wouldn't support a 20-year-old playing football against 10-year-olds

And what is that reason?

 

[Calheel]

Yes, it is sad and unfortunate when biology and genetics aren't in sync. I'm going to assume she has a vagina, which is likely the reason she was labeled a female at birth. The rest of her physical appearance (breasts, facial bone structure, etc) certainly appear to be male, along with presumably chromosomes and testosterone levels. It sucks, but this is where empathy, IMO, is a weakness and leads people to do the wrong thing. The wrong thing is allowing a male, in the ways being a male matter athletically, to beat up on females.

Surely a vagina doesn't supercede all other sexual characteristics.

You still haven't answered my question about chromosome testing.

Are you saying that all females should be chromosome tested to weed out supposed "males" competing in female sports?

Or are you saying that just females with flat chests and masculine features should be chromosome tested?

Or are you saying something else?

Keep in mind that the federation overseeing the testing and doing the leaking is controlled by Putin who likes to stoke these divisive issues in the West -- hence, there is at least some reason to be skeptical about the reported xy result.

 

[ChileG]

Yes, it is sad and unfortunate when biology and genetics aren't in sync. I'm going to assume she has a vagina, which is likely the reason she was labeled a female at birth. The rest of her physical appearance (breasts, facial bone structure, etc) certainly appear to be male, along with presumably chromosomes and testosterone levels. It sucks, but this is where empathy, IMO, is a weakness and leads people to do the wrong thing. The wrong thing is allowing a male, in the ways being a male matter athletically, to beat up on females.

Surely a vagina doesn't supercede all other sexual characteristics.

I think this is where we go back and read the OP. The last paragraph in particular.

 

[ZenMode]

And what is that reason?

Very obvious differences in lean mass, speed and strength due to the developmental difference of pre/post pubescent males.

 

[superrific]

Very obvious differences in lean mass, speed and strength due to the developmental difference of pre/post pubescent males.

So what? Some people are strong; some people aren't. 20 year olds fall into the former category; 10 year olds into the latter. I'm not seeing the problem.

 

[Calheel]

So what? Some people are strong; some people aren't. 20 year olds fall into the former category; 10 year olds into the latter. I'm not seeing the problem.

Dutee Chand - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Caster Semenya - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ZenMode]

So what? Some people are strong; some people aren't. 20 year olds fall into the former category; 10 year olds into the latter. I'm not seeing the problem.

So, there's a reason we, as a society, already separate male and female sports, divide athletic roughly by age, have weight classes in boxing and wrestling, etc.

There are all things that you not only didn't oppose, but I bet fully supported.... until now. Now it's become a political issue and an empathy issue, so reason goes out the window because your only concern is for the feelings of "Imane", not the list of women getting beat up by Imane.

 

[McAdooSmackinYou]

Are we going to have to ban mixed doubles tennis now, or just require the men to hit the ball softly to the women?

 

[superrific]

So, there's a reason we, as a society, already separate male and female sports, divide athletic roughly by age, have weight classes in boxing and wrestling, etc.

Yes, and that reason is empathy. This argument is over. You just conceded. Absent empathy, the 20 year old and 10 year old have competing claims of right. The 10 year old says, "don't beat me up, it hurts." The 20 year old says, "But I love it, and the pleasure I get from it is far more than it hurts you." And absent empathy, we have no particularly useful way of sorting it out -- at least not in any manner that can be applied in these circumstances.

The reason that we think the 20 year old beating up the 10 year old is wrong is that we have empathy for the 10 year old, and not the 20 year old bully.

Here's live look-in on super and ZenMode. Starts at 2:00. Zen considers himself quite the ninja, I'd imagine.

 

[ZenMode]

Yes, and that reason is empathy. This argument is over. You just conceded. Absent empathy, the 20 year old and 10 year old have competing claims of right. The 10 year old says, "don't beat me up, it hurts." The 20 year old says, "But I love it, and the pleasure I get from it is far more than it hurts you." And absent empathy, we have no particularly useful way of sorting it out -- at least not in any manner that can be applied in these circumstances.

The reason that we think the 20 year old beating up the 10 year old is wrong is that we have empathy for the 10 year old, and not the 20 year old bully.

Here's live look-in on super and ZenMode. Starts at 2:00. Zen considers himself quite the ninja, I'd imagine.

It's not empathy. It's general societal agreement regading the need to promote fairness and safety based on objective realities related to biology and physics.

 

[ZenMode]

You still haven't answered my question about chromosome testing.

Are you saying that all females should be chromosome tested to weed out supposed "males" competing in female sports?

Or are you saying that just females with flat chests and masculine features should be chromosome tested?

Or are you saying something else?

Keep in mind that the federation overseeing the testing and doing the leaking is controlled by Putin who likes to stoke these divisive issues in the West -- hence, there is at least some reason to be skeptical about the reported xy result.

How to keep males out of female sports is a different question than whether or not we should keep males out of female sports. How a state handles it will likely be different than how the IOC handles it.

I'm not claiming to be an expert of the "how".

 

[superrific]

It's not empathy. It's an understanding of the need to promote fairness

LOL. Fairness is a form of empathy.

All practical ethics is based on religion or empathy. Without one of the two, nothing matters.

 

[superrific]

A long time ago, a guy named Nathan, who was not good at sports, challenged me for some reason to a game of one-on-one hoops. I told him it wouldn't be fair, so I'd play with my left hand behind my back. I won 11-1. Then I switched it up and played with my right hand behind my back. I won 11-4.

Nathan was more competitive than ZenMode.

 

[ZenMode]

LOL. Fairness is a form of empathy.

All practical ethics is based on religion or empathy. Without one of the two, nothing matters.

Fairness is a form of sympathy. Sympathy is a good thing. Empathy is, again, why you discard fairness and reason, and the experience of many females, in favor of the experience of one person.

 

[superrific]

Fairness is a form of sympathy. Sympathy is a good thing. Empathy is, again, why you discard fairness and reason, and the experience of many females, in favor of the experience of one person.

You are again confusing sympathy and empathy. Sympathy is fundamentally about pity, which is emotional and not reason. Empathy is different; it's the desire to take multiple perspectives into account when making judgments.

I don't care if you want to continue this bullshit. You've had your arms and legs cut off, and you are not in fact going to bite my legs off. I'm going on my way. Toodles.

 

[ChileG]

You are again confusing sympathy and empathy. Sympathy is fundamentally about pity, which is emotional and not reason. Empathy is different; it's the desire to take multiple perspectives into account when making judgments.

I don't care if you want to continue this bullshit. You've had your arms and legs cut off, and you are not in fact going to bite my legs off. I'm going on my way. Toodles.

It’s only a flesh wound.

 

[ZenMode]

You are again confusing sympathy and empathy.

I'm not.

Sympathy is fundamentally about pity, which is emotional and not reason.

Sympathy is feeling sorry for someone for what they are going through.

Unlike empathy, sympathy is not putting yourself in their place and feeling their feelings.

Empathy is different; it's the desire to take multiple perspectives into account when making judgments.

It's literally feeling their feelings. You are putting yourself in their place and making decisions based on their feelings, not what is the reasonable thing to do.

I don't care if you want to continue this bullshit. You've had your arms and legs cut off, and you are not in fact going to bite my legs off. I'm going on my way. Toodles.

An unjustified victory lap isn't going to work.