The sad case of Imane Khelif

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Does she have to use the men’s bathroom, too? Or is she allowed to take her vagina into the women’s room?
 
ZenMode said:
I think there are a people who are biologically male at birth, live as a male for some portion of their lives and then decide to live as a female. Those are the people, because of their testosterone levels, who have a distinct advantage in female athletics. I support rules/laws to prevent those people from playing in female sports because it is unfair to biological females with testosterone levels in the normal range for females.

Is any law/rule going to be perfect? No. Will there be cases where there is some ambiguity? Yes and those exceptions can be handled as exceptions.
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But that is not her.

She never lived as a male. She has always lived as a female since birth.

So you are describing a situation that does not apply to her. Again, her case has nothing to do with transgenders. She is not transgender. She was assigned female at birth and has always been a female.
 
ZenMode said:
Imane's situation may have been ambiguous. The most recent report of XY/male karyotypes and elevated testosterone levels, if true, is enough to say she can't compete as a female, IMO.
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Then perhaps you can at least allow that it is still a sad case. This poor woman did nothing wrong but compete. There is no reason for her to believe she is anything but a woman. And now she has a large part of the world saying truly awful things about her, a lot of which isn’t true.
Your suggestion that the title of the thread to be changed to “man beats up women” is an example, and part of the reason why many of us look at the situation with sympathy.
 
ChileG said:
Then perhaps you can at least allow that it is still a sad case. This poor woman did nothing wrong but compete. There is no reason for her to believe she is anything but a woman. And now she has a large part of the world saying truly awful things about her, a lot of which isn’t true.
Your suggestion that the title of the thread to be changed to “man beats up women” is an example, and part of the reason why many of us look at the situation with sympathy.
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Yes, it is sad and unfortunate when biology and genetics aren't in sync. I'm going to assume she has a vagina, which is likely the reason she was labeled a female at birth. The rest of her physical appearance (breasts, facial bone structure, etc) certainly appear to be male, along with presumably chromosomes and testosterone levels. It sucks, but this is where empathy, IMO, is a weakness and leads people to do the wrong thing. The wrong thing is allowing a male, in the ways being a male matter athletically, to beat up on females.

Surely a vagina doesn't supercede all other sexual characteristics.
 
ZenMode said:
It sucks, but this is where empathy, IMO is a weakness and leads people to do the wrong thing. The wrong thing being allowing a male, in the ways being a male matter athletically, to beat up on females.
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You are too clueless to realize that your "wrong thing" is based on empathy. It's just your selective empathy, which is how all empathy-deniers operate. Their empathy is just reason; others' empathy is weakness.
 
superrific said:
You are too clueless to realize that your "wrong thing" is based on empathy. It's just your selective empathy, which is how all empathy-deniers operate. Their empathy is just reason; others' empathy is weakness.
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Nope. My position is based on objective, biological information.

The same reason you wouldn't support a 20-year-old playing football against 10-year-olds is why I don't support males competing against females.
 
ZenMode said:
Yes, it is sad and unfortunate when biology and genetics aren't in sync. I'm going to assume she has a vagina, which is likely the reason she was labeled a female at birth. The rest of her physical appearance (breasts, facial bone structure, etc) certainly appear to be male, along with presumably chromosomes and testosterone levels. It sucks, but this is where empathy, IMO, is a weakness and leads people to do the wrong thing. The wrong thing is allowing a male, in the ways being a male matter athletically, to beat up on females.

Surely a vagina doesn't supercede all other sexual characteristics.
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You still haven't answered my question about chromosome testing.

Are you saying that all females should be chromosome tested to weed out supposed "males" competing in female sports?

Or are you saying that just females with flat chests and masculine features should be chromosome tested?

Or are you saying something else?

Keep in mind that the federation overseeing the testing and doing the leaking is controlled by Putin who likes to stoke these divisive issues in the West -- hence, there is at least some reason to be skeptical about the reported xy result.
 
ZenMode said:
Yes, it is sad and unfortunate when biology and genetics aren't in sync. I'm going to assume she has a vagina, which is likely the reason she was labeled a female at birth. The rest of her physical appearance (breasts, facial bone structure, etc) certainly appear to be male, along with presumably chromosomes and testosterone levels. It sucks, but this is where empathy, IMO, is a weakness and leads people to do the wrong thing. The wrong thing is allowing a male, in the ways being a male matter athletically, to beat up on females.

Surely a vagina doesn't supercede all other sexual characteristics.
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I think this is where we go back and read the OP. The last paragraph in particular.
 
ZenMode said:
Very obvious differences in lean mass, speed and strength due to the developmental difference of pre/post pubescent males.
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So what? Some people are strong; some people aren't. 20 year olds fall into the former category; 10 year olds into the latter. I'm not seeing the problem.
 
superrific said:
So what? Some people are strong; some people aren't. 20 year olds fall into the former category; 10 year olds into the latter. I'm not seeing the problem.
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So, there's a reason we, as a society, already separate male and female sports, divide athletic roughly by age, have weight classes in boxing and wrestling, etc.

There are all things that you not only didn't oppose, but I bet fully supported.... until now. Now it's become a political issue and an empathy issue, so reason goes out the window because your only concern is for the feelings of "Imane", not the list of women getting beat up by Imane.
 
ZenMode said:
So, there's a reason we, as a society, already separate male and female sports, divide athletic roughly by age, have weight classes in boxing and wrestling, etc.
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Yes, and that reason is empathy. This argument is over. You just conceded. Absent empathy, the 20 year old and 10 year old have competing claims of right. The 10 year old says, "don't beat me up, it hurts." The 20 year old says, "But I love it, and the pleasure I get from it is far more than it hurts you." And absent empathy, we have no particularly useful way of sorting it out -- at least not in any manner that can be applied in these circumstances.

The reason that we think the 20 year old beating up the 10 year old is wrong is that we have empathy for the 10 year old, and not the 20 year old bully.

Here's live look-in on super and ZenMode. Starts at 2:00. Zen considers himself quite the ninja, I'd imagine.

 
superrific said:
Yes, and that reason is empathy. This argument is over. You just conceded. Absent empathy, the 20 year old and 10 year old have competing claims of right. The 10 year old says, "don't beat me up, it hurts." The 20 year old says, "But I love it, and the pleasure I get from it is far more than it hurts you." And absent empathy, we have no particularly useful way of sorting it out -- at least not in any manner that can be applied in these circumstances.

The reason that we think the 20 year old beating up the 10 year old is wrong is that we have empathy for the 10 year old, and not the 20 year old bully.

Here's live look-in on super and ZenMode. Starts at 2:00. Zen considers himself quite the ninja, I'd imagine.

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It's not empathy. It's general societal agreement regading the need to promote fairness and safety based on objective realities related to biology and physics.
 
Calheel said:
You still haven't answered my question about chromosome testing.

Are you saying that all females should be chromosome tested to weed out supposed "males" competing in female sports?

Or are you saying that just females with flat chests and masculine features should be chromosome tested?

Or are you saying something else?

Keep in mind that the federation overseeing the testing and doing the leaking is controlled by Putin who likes to stoke these divisive issues in the West -- hence, there is at least some reason to be skeptical about the reported xy result.
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How to keep males out of female sports is a different question than whether or not we should keep males out of female sports. How a state handles it will likely be different than how the IOC handles it.

I'm not claiming to be an expert of the "how".
 
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A long time ago, a guy named Nathan, who was not good at sports, challenged me for some reason to a game of one-on-one hoops. I told him it wouldn't be fair, so I'd play with my left hand behind my back. I won 11-1. Then I switched it up and played with my right hand behind my back. I won 11-4.

Nathan was more competitive than ZenMode.
 
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