UNC ONLY BASKETBALL 2024-25 SEASON

[superrific]

It is a long time - but I combined my schooling with tending bar and backpacking around Latin America (mostly). My doctorate is in LA History.

Were you doing that while you were enrolled (i.e. were you ABD for an eternity) or was the backpacking and bartending between undergrad and grad school?

BTW I have utmost respect for the PhD degree. It's the one degree where failure is a real option for everyone. People tell me, "you should be proud of graduating from a top law school." I say, "I guess I am proud of getting into a top law school, maybe, but almost everyone at law school graduates. You have to really try to fuck up to fail out." That is not true of a PhD. Isn't the "graduation rate" for incoming PhD students less than 50%? At one point, I thought it was considerably less. It's just a much harder degree, that requires a lot more work and a lot more rigor.

 

[superrific]

So, you were assuming it was true. Idk why you just didn't say that.

Because I didn't even know it was in dispute. I thought you were asking me about Popovich.

 

[donbosco]

Were you doing that while you were enrolled (i.e. were you ABD for an eternity) or was the backpacking and bartending between undergrad and grad school?

BTW I have utmost respect for the PhD degree. It's the one degree where failure is a real option for everyone. People tell me, "you should be proud of graduating from a top law school." I say, "I guess I am proud of getting into a top law school, maybe, but almost everyone at law school graduates. You have to really try to fuck up to fail out." That is not true of a PhD. Isn't the "graduation rate" for incoming PhD students less than 50%? At one point, I thought it was considerably less. It's just a much harder degree, that requires a lot more work and a lot more rigor.

It must be around 50% or so. Lots of people that began with me were gone before the third year as I recall, a couple by mid-point of the spring semester in their first year. I'm in touch with a good number of those folks as well as the ones that continued on. At UNC in History after you complete the MA you are either invited to continue or not. I'm only aware of one person that was not invited to continue that went on somewhere else and completed their PHD.

 

[donbosco]

As for tending bar and backpacking...I often worked full-time or close to it tending during school. I managed the bar in a couple of places along the way too. The backpacking was also mixed in there...one of the things that irritated my advisors the most was that I "dropped out" a few times and was gone for 6 months to a year and spent the time traveling as well as doing archival research.

 

[SnoopRob]

Go look up the word nepotism. Please. It’s your word, you plagued this thread with it. But go look it up, because you clearly don’t know the definition nor the connotation. Or very possibly, you’re dancing away from what you originally said because you know it’s an embarrassing claim that you should be ashamed of. So you’re either ignorant, or you intended to call Roy unethical — you pick.

Hiring your son or daughter is not nepotism, nor is it unethical. Favoritism without merit is what’s unethical. Hiring a candidate by favoring them due to a relationship despite a shortcoming in merit, THAT is nepotism. I can’t make it any clearer for you, there is no such thing as “ethical nepotism.” Roy had zero part in any nepotism, because he based his decision on merit. Merit which is crystal clear to others, even if it will never be clear to you.

Go learn something and come back when you know which words to use.

There it is, straight from Merriam-Webster.

It is literally hiring your family. There’s nothing about it being ethical/unethical.

Of course, I was using it a bit figuratively as we all know Roy & Hubert aren’t related.

You just told me to look up a word because I didn’t know the meaning while making it clear you don’t know it.

I can’t even say anything sarcastic at this point, you just made yourself look dumber than anything I could have done.

 

[SnoopRob]

I really appreciate this conversation. I'm learning a lot and y'all are posing many good and diverse points for consideration. This is quite clearly a Carolina conversation in fact...imagine for a moment all of these points going into a topic such as this among a state college, a Clemson, or even a Kentucky fan base...frankly I cannot.

I keep coming back to the broadness of the consideration "what is considered successful here" and the loftiness (highness) of how that measure is taken. For me, and clearly for many, it can't just be wins but something more akin to "how you play the game." I'm not saying that we are singular but we are pretty damn close to it. For good or ill depending on a fan's own values, Hubert Davis appears to have bought into Coach Smith's already mentioned ethos so long ago that it is ingrained. Maybe we can't keep the more nebulous measures high if we win at the level previously established in this day and age? That would signal the death knell of college basketball for me. I doubt anyone would much care what I do anyway. I enjoy professional sports just fine anyway. The college games have always been a horse of a different color for me.

I very much agree with you that a part of Carolina Basketball that we need to keep is "The Carolina Way" and that success at Carolina is about more than just wins & losses. (It's why I said before I can't imagine us hiring Nate Oats despite his on-the-court success because of his off-the-court problems.)

I do think that in an age where most players don't stay 4 years, The Carolina Way is going to have to change from what it was under Dean (and even Roy). I think it will have to shift to include players from the transfer portal who may only stay one year, much like it has done for OAD freshman. It will have to evolve to include players getting NIL money and, soon, money directly from the school. It will have to figure out how to empower players in the modern era in a similar way to what Dean did in his era.

But I think there can be continuity, as well. We can continue to point to the passer to recognize that the scorer is only as good as the person who sets up that score. We can recruit players who care about academics and are willing to be part of the greater Chapel Hill community rather than those who are simply basketball players. And we can continue to stress team success as equally important as individual success and seek players who strongly desire both.

If we can do those things, I think we can keep The Carolina Way alive going forward and keep what many of us find special about Carolina Basketball.

 

[Heelsandeers]

Agreed. Unless we fall apart completely I definitely think he'll get another year (whether he deserves it or not is a separate question that will no doubt be debated on this board for the rest of 2025, probably).

Count me as deserves 1 more year

HD hasn't shown improvement in some of the areas I'd hoped by now and is NOT getting the most out of this group. But I still think most of the issues of this season fall on roster construction, which we've known was a major problem since the summer

And yes, 6 losses by Jan. 1 is terrible but the caveat is still playing the toughest schedule to date of any high major program. Louisville was a pretty bad loss in form, but probably not a bad loss looking back in March if they finish how they're supposed to

As to why the roster is the way it is, and to what degree HD is solely to blame, I have no idea. But I would say another off season and opportunity to build a roster from scratch would give us a pretty good indication whether he is capable

We are coming off a year where he added 3 vital pieces in the off-season, won the ACC, clobbered Duke 2x, and earned a 1 seed in the NCAAT. Don't think he deserves to lose the job because he couldn't land a big in a finicky NIL-era

Like you said, given our failures in the transfer portal last year I am concerned that next year might be at least as bad or even worse.

Maybe, maybe not, but without knowing exactly what went wrong it's anyone's guess. The decision makers likely have a pretty good idea. If they believe it was because of missteps on HD's part, he very well may not get another opportunity

 

[donbosco]

I very much agree with you that a part of Carolina Basketball that we need to keep is "The Carolina Way" and that success at Carolina is about more than just wins & losses. (It's why I said before I can't imagine us hiring Nate Oats despite his on-the-court success because of his off-the-court problems.)

I do think that in an age where most players don't stay 4 years, The Carolina Way is going to have to change from what it was under Dean (and even Roy). I think it will have to shift to include players from the transfer portal who may only stay one year, much like it has done for OAD freshman. It will have to evolve to include players getting NIL money and, soon, money directly from the school. It will have to figure out how to empower players in the modern era in a similar way to what Dean did in his era.

But I think there can be continuity, as well. We can continue to point to the passer to recognize that the scorer is only as good as the person who sets up that score. We can recruit players who care about academics and are willing to be part of the greater Chapel Hill community rather than those who are simply basketball players. And we can continue to stress team success as equally important as individual success and seek players who strongly desire both.

If we can do those things, I think we can keep The Carolina Way alive going forward and keep what many of us find special about Carolina Basketball.

We see very much eye-to-eye Snoop. Reading what you have written tends to lead me to some deep thinking about the possibility that a man like Hubert Davis might be exactly what we need to make the transitions that you outline. I admit that I was originally a Wes Miller guy and I still believe that he'd be a great choice to lead the program. Indeed, a young man like Marcus Paige is also cut from the cloth that we ought to sew our Way Forward from.

 

[SnoopRob]

As for tending bar and backpacking...I often worked full-time or close to it tending during school. I managed the bar in a couple of places along the way too. The backpacking was also mixed in there...one of the things that irritated my advisors the most was that I "dropped out" a few times and was gone for 6 months to a year and spent the time traveling as well as doing archival research.

I find this fascinating and would love to hear more about it.

How long did it take you to get your PhD once you were ABD?

I ask because I'm a bit younger than you (undergrad c/o of 1999) and my friends roughly my age who went on to do PhDs typically had a limit for how long they could take to finish once ABD (and their PhD coursework before that was obviously much more structured).

 

[GoHeelsweeeehoooo]

Let's say Coach Davis does leave - who are some possible replacement candidates - Wes Miller? Jay Wright?

 

[SnoopRob]

We see very much eye-to-eye Snoop. Reading what you have written tends to lead me to some deep thinking about the possibility that a man like Hubert Davis might be exactly what we need to make the transitions that you outline. I admit that I was originally a Wes Miller guy and I still believe that he'd be a great choice to lead the program. Indeed, a young man like Marcus Paige is also cut from the cloth that we ought to sew our Way Forward from.

Despite what I've said on this thread, I really like Hubert as a person and as a Tar Heel (totally from a distance, though, as I've never met him).

I have absolutely no doubt he can carry on the off-the-court portions of The Carolina Way and would do so as well as anyone. My concerns with Hubert have to do with the competitiveness of the team. Unfortunately, we've been thoroughly mediocre for far too much of Hubert's tenure as HC.

I would suggest that part of The Carolina Way is also excellence on the court. It was Dean kicking tail with players who pointed to the passer after baskets, saying an encouraging word to the other coach in the post-game line, and then having his players help little old ladies across the street after the game before doing finishing their homework. I really, really hope we can find a modern version of this going forward.

 

[Heelsandeers]

Let's say Coach Davis does leave - who are some possible replacement candidates - Wes Miller? Jay Wright?

Jay didn't want the job last time and I doubt he would now

I like Wes and think he's a solid coach but he's barely proven more than Hubert as one, if that's supposed to be important criteria

There's a lot of interesting candidates in the NBA ranks (not necessarily head coaches) that could qualify

 

[SnoopRob]

Let's say Coach Davis does leave - who are some possible replacement candidates - Wes Miller? Jay Wright?

If we elect to stay "in the family", then Wes is the clear next coach. (I hope we don't do that.) He's also the likely "worst case backup" if we were to strike out on other options.

My hunch is that for the first time in a long, long (long, long, long) time, we'll have to run a real search. I don't know that there's necessarily anyone who would be the assumed next coach and instead we will have to simply go out on the market and make the best hire we can.

 

[duluoz]

There it is, straight from Merriam-Webster.

It is literally hiring your family. There’s nothing about it being ethical/unethical.

Of course, I was using it a bit figuratively as we all know Roy & Hubert aren’t related.

You just told me to look up a word because I didn’t know the meaning while making it clear you don’t know it.

I can’t even say anything sarcastic at this point, you just made yourself look dumber than anything I could have done.

Do you know what favoritism means? Because once again there’s a word you don’t know, and it’s exposing either your total ignorance or your tap-dancing around your bullshit claim of Roy hiring HD undeservedly and not on merit.

Nepotism and favoritism and partiality ALL have not only the definition, but also the connotation (look that one up too) of something that is done unethically or unjustly to favor one at the detriment of another.



“Favoritism”
“Undue attachment”
“Rather than of merit or their abilities”
“Because of their relationship”

Here’s Cambridge for you too:



Literally any example sentence using the term is in the context of something unethical and corrupt and lacking integrity. If you can’t make the tiny step to see how what you claimed about Roy is that he was unethical, AND that HD was unqualified and lacking merit, then you’re even worse off than I thought, in intelligence and in ethical judgment.

 

[SnoopRob]

Do you know what favoritism means? Because once again there’s a word you don’t know, and it’s exposing either your total ignorance or your tap-dancing around your bullshit claim of Roy hiring HD undeservedly and not on merit.

Nepotism and favoritism and partiality ALL have not only the definition, but also the connotation (look that one up too) of something that is done unethically or unjustly to favor one at the detriment of another.



“Favoritism”
“Undue attachment”
“Rather than of merit or their abilities”
“Because of their relationship”

If you can’t make the tiny step to see how what you claimed about Roy is that he was unethical, and HD unqualified, then you’re even worse off than I thought, in intelligence and in ethical judgment.

Good grief, you're clearly too stupid to have this discussion with.

I've said that HD got the job despite not having the qualifications that should have been in place for Carolina Basketball. And that he got the role largely because of Roy's preference for him. That's exactly why I used the term "nepo hire". Although I would say that Hubert was "underqualified" rather than "unqualified"; Hubert has some qualifications that were relevant to the position, just not the ones that should have been considered essential

The place I've disagreed with you is that doesn't inherently call into question Roy's ethics/character. One can truly believe that such a hire is the best path forward while also ignoring reasonable objective qualifications. In short, nepotism can be well-intentioned while also being favoritism. Which is what I would say happened in this case.

 

[donbosco]

It probably is too bad that Mickey Popovich is a no-basketball-playing recluse though.

 

[Batt Boy]

Let's say Coach Davis does leave - who are some possible replacement candidates - Wes Miller? Jay Wright?

someone who coaches and doesn't just flail their arms for people to run fast

 

[stankeylegjones]

Because I didn't even know it was in dispute. I thought you were asking me about Popovich.

It is a known false-narrative that folks who are against the hire are (trying to) propagate.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Jay didn't want the job last time and I doubt he would now

I like Wes and think he's a solid coach but he's barely proven more than Hubert as one, if that's supposed to be important criteria

There's a lot of interesting candidates in the NBA ranks (not necessarily head coaches) that could qualify

How do we know Jay didn't want it? HD was named by Roy when Roy let Bubba know. But, I don't think he'd want the job, nor do I think he'd be the best choice, but I'd take him.

I just hope they do a real search, and end this "in the family" stuff.

 

[Heelsandeers]

How do we know Jay didn't want it?

That's what was reported at the time, and Jay has basically said as much since he retired