UNC ONLY BASKETBALL 2024-25 SEASON

[Calheel]

I think it's less of a matter of who he has on his roster, than who he doesn't have on his roster (i.e. legit 5, stretch 4).

Folks who argue that the recruiting misses are on him are not wrong.

But folks who use "these are his guys" to mean that Hubert is losing with the roster that he hand crafted and explicitly wanted, are arguing in bad faith (imo).

No one gets 100% of the guys they explicitly want. But in this day and age, a good coach with the resources of UNC should be able to construct a top 10-20 team every year -- even with his eyes closed.

This is 100% Hubert's team. He failed to construct a roster that makes sense and he failed to coach the guys he had (despite a preseason top 15 ranking). In particular, his decision to turn away interested big men in favor of players he was not able to secure is his fault -- especially given his failure to get a GM when other top programs had been moving in that direction for years.

To the extent he wants to blame limited funds, it is his job to create excitement for the program and generate those funds. Belichick was able to double our player budget overnight. If Hubert does not have what it takes to lead the program in this day and age, there are plenty of people who do.

I think he deserves the space to turn this season around, but if he can't make the NCAAT this year, the writing is on the wall.

 

[donbosco]

I admit to being baffled as to why we couldn’t have brought in the caliber of a Big like the Russian at Clemson or even that 7-footer at Elon [16-11] (6.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.4 bpg). Hell, UNCA (19-7) has a 6-9 big, Toyaz Solomon from Enfield (15.7 ppg. 7.5 rpg, 1.6 bpg).

Of course any of those would gave brought screams of ‘aiming too low’ from plenty of folks.

But any two of those bigs would gave transformed this team’s won-loss record demonstrably.

 

[Geisterfahrer]

I’m probably not the only person wholly uninterested in Roy’s take on this situation. All respect and love to him, but the product on the courts speaks more persuasively.

 

[CRHeel94]

You know in personal evaluations how they say your greatest strength can also be a liability?

Roy, like Coach Smith before him, is extremely loyal. Will always go to bat for his guys. He will support HD to the end, and then some.
Coach Smith was like that... I would have loved to know his thoughts as he realized that Doherty was in over his head...probably happened in steps (replacing the secretaries, the big Doh picture, refusing advice, etc).

 

[Bigs23]

You know in personal evaluations how they say your greatest strength can also be a liability?

Roy, like Coach Smith before him, is extremely loyal. Will always go to bat for his guys. He will support HD to the end, and then some.
Coach Smith was like that... I would have loved to know his thoughts as he realized that Doherty was in over his head...probably happened in steps (replacing the secretaries, the big Doh picture, refusing advice, etc).

Dean made some comments about “having the players” in regards to Doh. This was around the time all the negative stories about how Doh treated them was coming out.

 

[Bigs23]

I’m probably not the only person wholly uninterested in Roy’s take on this situation. All respect and love to him, but the product on the courts speaks more persuasively.

I find Roy’s opinion more interesting than just about anyone else’s.

 

[SnoopRob]

Roy also did an interview with IC...

Roy Williams Stands Supportive, Optimistic As UNC Navigates CBB Landscape

The Hall of Famer, responsible for three of the Tar Heels' national championship wins, believes there's "no bigger fan" of North Carolina basketball than him.

247sports.com

 

[Ddseddse]

No one gets 100% of the guys they explicitly want. But in this day and age, a good coach with the resources of UNC should be able to construct a top 10-20 team every year -- even with his eyes closed.

This is 100% Hubert's team. He failed to construct a roster that makes sense and he failed to coach the guys he had (despite a preseason top 15 ranking). In particular, his decision to turn away interested big men in favor of players he was not able to secure is his fault -- especially given his failure to get a GM when other top programs had been moving in that direction for years.

To the extent he wants to blame limited funds, it is his job to create excitement for the program and generate those funds. Belichick was able to double our player budget overnight. If Hubert does not have what it takes to lead the program in this day and age, there are plenty of people who do.

I think he deserves the space to turn this season around, but if he can't make the NCAAT this year, the writing is on the wall.

If you are saying that Hubert's failures on the recruiting trail should be the nail in coffin in terms of his UNC head coaching gig, I will cede that you have a point that deserves to be made .

I'm objecting to folks who a pointing to Hubert's on the court coaching as the problem. I think that is largely missing the point. Yes, there seems to be a team chemistry issue, but that's more a symptom than a root cause. The team "engine" isn't firing on all cylinders, but that's precisely because it is missing a few critical parts.

 

[SnoopRob]

Roy doing a press tour in support of HD strikes me as an admission of how warm HD's seat is, at least among the fans.

Roy's certainly stayed in the background for the first 3.5 years of HD's tenure, but I'm guessing it's pretty obvious why he's speaking out a bit more now.

 

[Geisterfahrer]

I find Roy’s opinion more interesting than just about anyone else’s.

You realize this is intentional damage control?

 

[SnoopRob]

I admit to being baffled as to why we couldn’t have brought in the caliber of a Big like the Russian at Clemson or even that 7-footer at Elon [16-11] (6.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.4 bpg). Hell, UNCA (19-7) has a 6-9 big, Toyaz Solomon from Enfield (15.7 ppg. 7.5 rpg, 1.6 bpg).

Of course any of those would gave brought screams of ‘aiming too low’ from plenty of folks.

But any two of those bigs would gave transformed this team’s won-loss record demonstrably.

I think we probably got the best folks we could get, given the amount of time there is to figure out who's in the portal and make any real guess at how they'll do at a P4 school.

In terms of Matthew Van Komen (Elon) and Toyaz Solomon (UNCA), I'm guessing they wouldn't be much more productive here than the guys we have.

Viktor Lakhin (Clemson) is an interesting idea, but I'm guessing that we didn't pursue him because he committed to Clemson on April 17th before we were in the range to really consider him. Here are all the bigs I can remember us being linked to (in any real way at all) and the dates they committed to a school:

Norchad Omier - May 5th
Great Osobor - May 13th
Clifford Omoruyi - May 5th
Jonas Aidoo - April 29th
Danny Wolf - April 20th
Adou Thiero - May 6th
Maxime Raynaud - April 12th (withdrew from portal)
Ven-Allen Lubin - May 23rd

The only one who was off the board by the time Lakhin picked Clemson was Raynaud and he was an early decider. I'm guessing if Lakhin would have still been in the portal on May 7th, we likely would have reached out and strongly considered him.

 

[SnoopRob]

I'm objecting to folks who a pointing to Hubert's on the court coaching as the problem. I think that is largely missing the point. Yes, there seems to be a team chemistry issue, but that's more a symptom than a root cause. The team "engine" isn't firing on all cylinders, but that's precisely because it is missing a few critical parts.

I think Hubert's coaching is a part of the overall problem we face.

I think Hubert's a decent coach and I'm not saying he has no clue what he's doing. But I don't think he has shown the ability to be flexible enough with his coaching decisions enough of the time that he's putting the team in a good chance to succeed.

I think his offense, while not amazing like Roy's, does create open shots a decent percentage of the time. The problems are (a) that the open shots it creates are often created for players who aren't likely to maximize the effectiveness of that open look and (b) when it doesn't create an open look, there seems to be no "plan b" for that possession and we end up just pounding the leather off the ball. In terms of (a), HD's offense fairly often creates an open 3 from the corner, the problem is that it's often Drake Powell or Jae'Lyn Withers or another player you don't necessarily want taking a 3 who has the shot and so while the shot is open, it's not from a player likely to make it consistently. In terms of (b), when the structured play breaks down, we seem to not be ready with a counter to the defense and so we end up dribbling a lot and then putting up a less than great shot.

I think his defense works in a way that could be effective, but, unfortunately, not with the players we have on this team. We switch pretty much everything and that allows the other team to essentially "pick" a match up they want to see and then run a play leading to a switch that creates a mismatch in their favor. We do sometimes try other defensive options, but not regularly and not for significant periods of time.

So while I think there are likely a variety of issues that lead this team to where we find it, HD's coaching is one piece of the puzzle and I don't see any significant improvement in that area over his tenure as HC.

 

[Ddseddse]

I think Hubert's coaching is a part of the overall problem we face.

I think Hubert's a decent coach and I'm not saying he has no clue what he's doing. But I don't think he has shown the ability to be flexible enough with his coaching decisions enough of the time that he's putting the team in a good chance to succeed.

I think his offense, while not amazing like Roy's, does create open shots a decent percentage of the time. The problems are (a) that the open shots it creates are often created for players who aren't likely to maximize the effectiveness of that open look and (b) when it doesn't create an open look, there seems to be no "plan b" for that possession and we end up just pounding the leather off the ball. In terms of (a), HD's offense fairly often creates an open 3 from the corner, the problem is that it's often Drake Powell or Jae'Lyn Withers or another player you don't necessarily want taking a 3 who has the shot and so while the shot is open, it's not from a player likely to make it consistently. In terms of (b), when the structured play breaks down, we seem to not be ready with a counter to the defense and so we end up dribbling a lot and then putting up a less than great shot.

I think his defense works in a way that could be effective, but, unfortunately, not with the players we have on this team. We switch pretty much everything and that allows the other team to essentially "pick" a match up they want to see and then run a play leading to a switch that creates a mismatch in their favor. We do sometimes try other defensive options, but not regularly and not for significant periods of time.

So while I think there are likely a variety of issues that lead this team to where we find it, HD's coaching is one piece of the puzzle and I don't see any significant improvement in that area over his tenure as HC.

Not sure we aren't both addressing different sides of the same coin. The open 3 in the corner should be going to the missing stretch 4, for example.

I mean you can argue that coach Davis should be better able to adapt his offence to the pieces he has, and to an extent that's true, but if you are missing pieces to pound it inside, and you're missing pieces to stretch the floor, that's a big ask. What exactly do you want him to do? At some point in time it becomes more about what you're missing, and less about what you have.

 

[farce©]

I find Roy’s opinion more interesting than just about anyone else’s.

I'm sure you realize Roy is hardly a disinterested impartial observer. He hand-picked Hubert for this job and made sure his choice was implemented. Roy would be admitting a big mistake while making Hubert look bad if he said anything other than what he said. Roy's finger prints are all over this situation. So you may find Roy's take more interesting but that doesn't make it more valid.

 

[TarSpiel]

I'm sure you realize Roy is hardly a disinterested impartial observer. He hand-picked Hubert for this job and made sure his choice was implemented. Roy would be admitting a big mistake while making Hubert look bad if he said anything other than what he said. Roy's finger prints are all over this situation. So you may find Roy's take more interesting but that doesn't make it more valid.

I don't think Roy's trying to cover his ass or anything, I think he genuinely believes in Coach Davis.

The amount of shit that's getting thrown at Roy for supporting Coach Davis is amazing. Sports really does bring out the very worst in people.

 

[finesse]

I still feel like we should wait a year. I'd like to see what happens under the new scheme. This year was basically lost in the portal. No big man and Tyson has to be one of the major disappointments coming out of the portal. Another knockdown three point shooter would have taken a lot of pressure off of RJ.

Some of this is loyalty to the family aspect and part of it is a real hesitancy to revamp the program so completely during a time where we really don't know where college basketball is going. I don't see this portal thing staying this wide open.

 

[farce©]

I don't think Roy's trying to cover his ass or anything, I think he genuinely believes in Coach Davis.

The amount of shit that's getting thrown at Roy for supporting Coach Davis is amazing. Sports really does bring out the very worst in people.

I don't doubt Roy genuinely believes in Coach Davis. But I also think it is impossible for Roy to be a clear-eyed realist given his involvement in the situation up to this point.

 

[SnoopRob]

Not sure we aren't both addressing different sides of the same coin. The open 3 in the corner should be going to the missing stretch 4, for example.

I mean you can argue that coach Davis should be better able to adapt his offence to the pieces he has, and to an extent that's true, but if you are missing pieces to pound it inside, and you're missing pieces to stretch the floor, that's a big ask. What exactly do you want him to do? At some point in time it becomes more about what you're missing, and less about what you have.

The entire argument regarding coaching is that HD should have adapted the offense (and defense) to better fit the players he has.

If he can't adapt his offense to the players he has, then he puts a tremendous burden on himself to always get exactly what he needs from recruiting (HS and/or portal), which is a recipe for the kinds of seasons we've seen under HD...good when the players work (and the right players are played) to fit the system and bad when the players don't work to fit the system.

One of my issues with HD is that a good coach should have the ability to take the talent (imperfect as it may be) on the 2023 and 2025 teams to the NCAAT. Far less talented teams than either of those squads will be in the NCAAT for those years. I'm not saying that we should be a 1 or 2 seed in those seasons, but there is no reason a good coach shouldn't have those teams at least a fringe top 25 squad and safely in the NCAAT. The fact that Hubert can't adapt his coaching schemes enough to do so is one reason why I think we should be at the point of moving on to a new HC & staff.

 

[duluoz]

Roy's finger prints are all over this situation. So you may find Roy's take more interesting but that doesn't make it more valid.

Neither does it make it less valid, unless someone is willing to question Roy’s integrity.

I will never do that, and as much as he has a personal vested interest in HD’s success due to their relationship and his hand in the decision, he also has an interest in the program’s success far beyond that of anyone on this board. And he also has an understanding of the current climate and recruiting landscape, the inner workings of the program and team, and how Hubert Davis fits into all of that… far beyond that of anyone on this board.

Just because Roy resisted and ultimately rejected the current landscape doesn’t mean he doesn’t understand how it works. And he knows HD and the program and the ways all of that might evolve better than anyone alive. Certainly better than anyone bitching and moaning here. His vantage point is not narrower than ours, it’s far, far broader.

So sure, you could argue he’s blinded by passion and you all are seeing something that he’s failing or unwilling to see. But it could also mean he’s seeing something down the road that you all are failing to see, and hasty shortsightedness is the last thing needed. Because it IS hasty, make no mistake — the Heels were a #1 seed that got edged out in the Sweet 16 barely a year ago.

To all those who think it’s the former and you know better, I’d suggest some humility and deference to Roy. Instead of “poor old guy’s just lost touch and trying to save face…” But personally I think it’s the latter, and once HD gets his sea legs for roster construction (as ALL coaches are still trying to do, some with more luck than others) then things will smooth out and get back into the consistency everyone’s used to.

Especially when the best answer anyone has for who his replacement should be is “a top coach.” Fuck does that mean anymore? Nobody knows yet. You want Dan Hurley or Jon Scheyer? I sure as hell don’t. They couldn’t do a damn thing different with the current roster. Jay Wright? The guy who got out for the same reasons Roy did? He saw the coming landscape and preferred to hang out in the studio and with his family. So who then?? Who is this mythical coach who “is worthy of an upper echelon job like UNC” as you all like to regurgitate, as though HD isn’t “worthy.” It’s largely a bunch of bullshit entitlement and impatience. And Roy would tell you the same without the curse word.

 

[TarSpiel]

I don't doubt Roy genuinely believes in Coach Davis. But I also think it is impossible for Roy to be a clear-eyed realist given his involvement in the situation up to this point.

Yea, well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander...you think any of our fans are able to be "clear-eyed realists"?