United Healthcare CEO shot and killed

HeelingAg said:
Maybe. It is pretty on the nose, but I think Occam would approve, nevertheless.

Maybe the guy is suspected of flipping in his fraud investigation?

That said, if a pro hit, it wouldn’t strike me as “pro” to leave a 10 day trail prior to the murder.
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If a pro hit and there was no advanced scouting done for him, he absolutely would have spent time in advance observing the target and learning his schedule/ vulnerabilities.
 
HeelingAg said:
That said, if a pro hit, it wouldn’t strike me as “pro” to leave a 10 day trail prior to the murder.
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One assumes that he was spending time scoping out the area and planning the job.

Just a random thought: do we know if the guy caught on camera at the Starbucks is actually the shooter? Is there an image of the shooter's face while doing the shooting? If so, the rest of this post is moot, but if not . . .

I've been suspicious of the Starbucks visit from the beginning. You don't need to go to Starbucks to get a coffee in NYC, not even in Midtown (at least that was true a decade ago). There are plenty of places to get coffee that wouldn't necessarily have high quality security cams, or the ability to search the video footage so quickly. Given the other details that we've seen now, I'm wondering if he was trying to get himself on camera.

So he leaves Starbucks, and he goes . . . somewhere completely different, while a guy he knows dressed similarly does the actual job. The guy on the video leads the manhunt into central park, the real shooter vanishes into Hell's Kitchen, and there's actually nothing tying Starbucks guy to the job. Maybe the cops have information we don't (they probably do!), but based on the evidence we've seen, even if they find the guy, they wouldn't be able to hold him long. There's nothing tying him to the crime other than being dressed the same way as the shooter.

I don't know. Often the Occam's razor explanation for stuff like this is "criminals aren't all that smart, which is why they are criminals," but that does not seem to be the case here. Here is a shooter who managed to get himself in exactly the same spot as the victim in a location that's at least semi-private, with an escape path, a possibly sophisticated weapon and firearms expertise. This doesn't seem to be a guy who would show his face unless he wanted people to see.
 
duluoz said:
I’m thinking (as others have said) that this guy made his way out of the country by now. And they still don’t know his name. They’re still investigating DNA and fingerprints and the burner phone, and Eric Adams just a bit ago said:

“We are asking every New Yorker and American to look at the picture [of the suspect] and to assist us," Adams said. "If you know him, if his face looks familiar, please reach out to our law enforcement here or your local law enforcement so we can bring this person to justice."

That doesn’t sound like something you say when you’re closing in on a guy. This guy may not be a pro, but he’s well-funded and at least a decent planner. He seems to have paid for everything in cash (including the hostel), probably had a plane ticket purchased a while ago, and is probably chillin on a beach in Cuba right now.
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Wasn't he seen on the West Side of Manhattan exiting Central Park on a bike? That's not the right direction for the airport, and he'd be an idiot to try to cross into Jersey to get to Newark.

Which is perhaps another reason to think there's some misdirection. There's a guy leaving Central Park on a bike dressed in similar clothes to the shooter. And with everyone looking on the Upper West Side, shooter gets on the A train and heads straight for JFK. Then, as you said, he's gone.
 
duluoz said:
I’m thinking (as others have said) that this guy made his way out of the country by now. And they still don’t know his name. They’re still investigating DNA and fingerprints and the burner phone, and Eric Adams just a bit ago said:

“We are asking every New Yorker and American to look at the picture [of the suspect] and to assist us," Adams said. "If you know him, if his face looks familiar, please reach out to our law enforcement here or your local law enforcement so we can bring this person to justice."

That doesn’t sound like something you say when you’re closing in on a guy. This guy may not be a pro, but he’s well-funded and at least a decent planner. He seems to have paid for everything in cash (including the hostel), probably had a plane ticket purchased a while ago, and is probably chillin on a beach in Cuba right now.
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Hopefully he'll be enjoying a Mai Tai when someone does him in like he did the CEO.
 
He was seen exiting the park at W. 85th. That’s not the right direction for NYC airports, but it is the right direction if he was going back to the hostel ~15 blocks from there, to get the rest of his shit or do who knows what. Obviously investigators know whether he went back to the hostel afterward, but that’s not been made public as far as I know.

As for Starbucks, I’m not going to get into your theories of lookalikes or whatever, but they claim to have tracked one single guy from the point he pops up at 57th/6th from the F train, to Starbucks (which is directly adjacent to the top of those subway stairs, so it would’ve been the first thing he saw) for his water and protein bars, then to the Hilton (still on 6th Ave), and ultimately to the curb on 54th near the Hilton where he waited for the CEO. Same clothes, build, backpack.
 
BlooVooDoo said:
Maybe, but if it was someone holding a personal grudge due to the death or suffering of a loved one denied coverage, I’d think they’d want that motive known.
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Perhaps not. If I squashed a roach for crawling over my last piece of pizza I wouldn't run and boast to my wife about that. I would just give the pizza to the kid for lunch and move on with my day.
 
BlooVooDoo said:
That’s not going to happen. Drop a dime on him, sure, but ain’t nobody looking to assassinate him.
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If he winds up found dead, it’s probably by his own hand. But that doesn’t seem likely given what has been made public.

I guess it’s possible someone more professional would take him out to cover tracks, but that gets into the insider trading trails and the estranged wife, etc. And I’m not really interested in looking at that stuff given the current details. So far, I’m with Occam’s Razor on this one.
 
duluoz said:
If he winds up found dead, it’s probably by his own hand. But that doesn’t seem likely given what has been made public.

I guess it’s possible someone more professional would take him out to cover tracks, but that gets into the insider trading trails and the estranged wife, etc. And I’m not really interested in looking at that stuff given the current details. So far, I’m with Occam’s Razor on this one.
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Agreed. The motive makes sense given the substantial number of people insurers fuck over on a regular.
 
duluoz said:
He was seen exiting the park at W. 85th. That’s not the right direction for NYC airports, but it is the right direction if he was going back to the hostel ~15 blocks from there, to get the rest of his shit or do who knows what. Obviously investigators know whether he went back to the hostel afterward, but that’s not been made public as far as I know.

As for Starbucks, I’m not going to get into your theories of lookalikes or whatever, but they claim to have tracked one single guy from the point he pops up at 57th/6th from the F train, to Starbucks (which is directly adjacent to the top of those subway stairs, so it would’ve been the first thing he saw) for his water and protein bars, then to the Hilton (still on 6th Ave), and ultimately to the curb on 54th near the Hilton where he waited for the CEO. Same clothes, build, backpack.
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1. If he went back to the hostel to get his stuff . . . I mean, that can't be real, can it? Why would you plan a getaway and then go back to where you were staying? You fucking toss all that shit in an incinerator.

2. Whether they tracked the guy the whole way -- that was my question. Obviously if so, then the accomplice/misdirection theory is considerably less compelling (and it already wasn't that compelling).

But it just makes no fucking sense to get the water and protein bars at Starbucks on the way to the fucking job. Get that shit on the upper west side. Put it in the backpack. Get it at a bodega. Don't get it from Starbucks within walking distance of the hit, unless you're trying to be seen. I mean, even I know that, and this dude seems way more sophisticated at this than I am.

3. It is really strange that he came out of the F train stop. I'm not sure there's a subway spot in the area that's harder to get to from the UWS than that one. The B train does not stop at 103st until 6:30. Shit, I don't even remember how you get from the 2/3 line to the F train. You'd have to make two transfers minimum.

However, it's not hard to get to Port Authority. Does Port Authority still have lockers you can rent? I would think not, but if so, then maybe that's where he stashed his gun. Didn't someone say he came into NY via bus?
 
duluoz said:
I’m thinking (as others have said) that this guy made his way out of the country by now. And they still don’t know his name. They’re still investigating DNA and fingerprints and the burner phone, and Eric Adams just a bit ago said:

“We are asking every New Yorker and American to look at the picture [of the suspect] and to assist us," Adams said. "If you know him, if his face looks familiar, please reach out to our law enforcement here or your local law enforcement so we can bring this person to justice."

That doesn’t sound like something you say when you’re closing in on a guy. This guy may not be a pro, but he’s well-funded and at least a decent planner. He seems to have paid for everything in cash (including the hostel), probably had a plane ticket purchased a while ago, and is probably chillin on a beach in Cuba right now.
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Yeah, he might not be a paid hitman, but seems he is smart and knew what he was doing.
 
If they don’t catch the perp in the next day or two, what’s the chances they drum up a rube and try to pin it on him?
 
Just heard on tv someone say you can't rule out he contracted someone to have himself killed. Could be for insurance money. He is estranged from him wife. Would certainly explain how the killer knew he'd be there at that exact time and place all alone.
 
superrific said:
But it just makes no fucking sense to get the water and protein bars at Starbucks on the way to the fucking job. Get that shit on the upper west side. Put it in the backpack. Get it at a bodega. Don't get it from Starbucks within walking distance of the hit, unless you're trying to be seen. I mean, even I know that, and this dude seems way more sophisticated at this than I am.

3. It is really strange that he came out of the F train stop. I'm not sure there's a subway spot in the area that's harder to get to from the UWS than that one. The B train does not stop at 103st until 6:30. Shit, I don't even remember how you get from the 2/3 line to the F train. You'd have to make two transfers minimum.
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Regarding Starbucks, he had his mask up at the time, and we already know that although he’s capable and reasonably intelligent and well-funded, he’s not a well-oiled killing machine.

Regarding the F train, I posted the exact thing the other day when I called attention to the apparent gap in surveillance from around 5a when he left the hostel area, to 6:15a when he popped up at the F stop. The only ways to get to that stop from where he started at 5a are circuitous and pretty unlikely. He would’ve had to really bungle his subway route to have it take 1 hour 15 mins and end up at that station.

So what he was doing from 5a to 6:15a remains a big question for me. Hopefully the investigators have lots more details on that they’re not sharing.
 
336Heel said:
Just heard on tv someone say you can't rule out he contracted someone to have himself killed. Could be for insurance money. He is estranged from him wife. Would certainly explain how the killer knew he'd be there at that exact time and place all alone.
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Usually, the point of killing yourself for the insurance money is to leave it to your spouse. The insurance money doesn't do him any good if he's dead, and if his wife is estranged, what's the point? Plus, I'm guessing that the insurance on a top executive like that does not have a suicide exclusion.

Also, if he wants to arrange a hit, why would he do it on the way to a meeting?

This idea seems incredibly far-fetched to me, and I'm willing to entertain far-fetched theories just for the fun of it.
 
336Heel said:
Just heard on tv someone say you can't rule out he contracted someone to have himself killed. Could be for insurance money. He is estranged from him wife. Would certainly explain how the killer knew he'd be there at that exact time and place all alone.
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"Just don't shoot me in the face... I don't want to see it coming... make it quick... 1/2 now, 1/2 when the job's done, money is already in an account off-shore waiting for you."
 
superrific said:
Usually, the point of killing yourself for the insurance money is to leave it to your spouse. The insurance money doesn't do him any good if he's dead, and if his wife is estranged, what's the point? Plus, I'm guessing that the insurance on a top executive like that does not have a suicide exclusion.

Also, if he wants to arrange a hit, why would he do it on the way to a meeting?

This idea seems incredibly far-fetched to me, and I'm willing to entertain far-fetched theories just for the fun of it.
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Not to mention, it seems that if someone is going to agree to carry out a killing contracted by the victim, the killer is going to draw the line at doing it on a street in Midtown Manhattan in front of a hotel. “Okay I’ll do this for you, but let’s come up with places where there are less likely to be witnesses or surveillance cameras.”
 
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