Where do we go from here?

[farce©]

Fair enough. I believe that Trump was only prosecuted because he upsets the political machine like no other person in modern history. Not because he committed serious crimes.

Honest question for you. Since you believe someone who is guilty of a crime should be prosecuted no matter what. How do you feel about the tens of millions of illegal immigrants that broke the law entering our country? Does this put you on the side of being okay with mass deportation since they all broke the law?

Sure, go get them. But I also advocate for prosecuting those who hire them. You also have to keep in mind that those seeking asylum entered the country legally.

 

[finesse]

Top of my head…

That people are just pawns to be placed neatly divided up into groups based on race and gender and appealed to that way via identity politics, instead of trying to solve issues that actually matter to people in 2024.

That men should be able to play women’s sports and you’re a bigot if you think otherwise.

That prisoners should be able to receive taxpayer funded gender transition surgeries [exit polls show this statement by Harris in particular and the Trump ad that highlighted it was very impactful with Latinos and African Americans]

That illegal immigrants are just innocent/helpful members of society that keep our costs down, rather than defining them as the criminals they are.

That young people’s votes can be bought by trying to forgive their student loans, never mind the fact that this completely ignores and pisses off the working class who didn’t go to college and is struggling more than people who have college degrees.

That women should lie to their husbands about who they plan to vote for.

Now use the inside and think about how petty these are compared to killing women through outlawing abortion.

What is the real criminal rate for immigrants according to anybody who has any kind of legitimate statistics. What is the last wave of immigration that actually damaged America?

Will you ever differentiate immigration and drug trafficking which mostly are done by legals. After all, 5 lbs. of fentanyl is the the equivalent of 125-250 lbs of heroin. It's a lot easier to get it in with legals than facing the extra scrutiny.

 

[heelinhell]

Sure, go get them. But I also advocate for prosecuting those who hire them. You also have to keep in mind that those seeking asylum entered the country legally.

If the mass deportation is implemented ( I have my doubts) then I would support as part of the plan to identify any employer who hired said captured illegal immigrant who will be deported and charge that employer with a felony for each illegal hired with a punishment up to 20 years in prison.

This would deter employers from hiring illegals which in turn would deter illegals from entering our country to seek employment for a better way of life.

 

[heel17]

Presented without further comment besides the fact that the only winning coalition will be less educated on average than the Harris 2024 coalition.

Not to argue any point here, but that’s a really shitty graph that’s difficult to read. As a communications guy who regularly works with statisticians and scientists to make things that are easily understood by lay people…this would be one of my “don’t” examples.

I like to think I'm pretty solid at reading a chart and I have no fucking clue what that one shows or portends to show.

The point is that the Rs have been trending from being the "High-education, High-income" party to the "Low-education, Low-income" party and the dems have done the opposite. Many of the country club and suburban Rs have flipped D while rural whites and now minorities have started to go R. Obviously it isn't a complete picture and political coalitions are and always have been complex and ever shifting but it resonates with me in explaining some of the recent shifts, especially since Trump.

The Ds push policies that are better for the lower left quadrant while bleeding those voters due to shifting cultural and political identities. The Rs meanwhile have historically pushed policies that are at least believed by most voters to be better economically for the upper half of the chart (taxes bad) but have of late been pushing much more populist policies (tariffs) in alignment with the lower left as cover for the oligarchic class continuing to amass wealth and power. I believe the Ds pushing student loan forgiveness is a good example in the opposite direction. This board knows millions (especially Gen X and Millenials) are hamstrung and need help, but it had a lot of play for the Rs as being a bailout for wealthy liberals.

If the coalitions are Rs with the oligarchs and the low-ed, low-income population vs. cosmopolitan middle/upper class and educated voters, there are more of the former than the latter. The Ds MUST find a way to reconnect with the non-MAGA lower left, but the cultural and now policy pull of each party will be very tough to overcome.

 

[UNCatTech]

Top of my head…

That people are just pawns to be placed neatly divided up into groups based on race and gender and appealed to that way via identity politics, instead of trying to solve issues that actually matter to people in 2024.

That men should be able to play women’s sports and you’re a bigot if you think otherwise.

That prisoners should be able to receive taxpayer funded gender transition surgeries [exit polls show this statement by Harris in particular and the Trump ad that highlighted it was very impactful with Latinos and African Americans]

That illegal immigrants are just innocent/helpful members of society that keep our costs down, rather than defining them as the criminals they are.

That young people’s votes can be bought by trying to forgive their student loans, never mind the fact that this completely ignores and pisses off the working class who didn’t go to college and is struggling more than people who have college degrees.

That women should lie to their husbands about who they plan to vote for.

I'll respond to each as I have time but its very clear that these come from trumps statements and your interpretation.

Just start with the last one.

The point wasn't for a woman to lie to their husband. The point was that women have the freedom of thought to make their own choice and not be compelled to vote based off of their husband's position.

This was supported by evangelicals that basically said that their wives were really just a second vote for them as the wife had no choice and had to vote as their husband did.

Do you agree that a woman shouldn't have the right to vote as she wishes?

 

[EyeballKid]

The point is that the Rs have been trending from being the "High-education, High-income" party to the "Low-education, Low-income" party and the dems have done the opposite. Many of the country club and suburban Rs have flipped D while rural whites and now minorities have started to go R. Obviously it isn't a complete picture and political coalitions are and always have been complex and ever shifting but it resonates with me in explaining some of the recent shifts, especially since Trump.

The Ds push policies that are better for the lower left quadrant while bleeding those voters due to shifting cultural and political identities. The Rs meanwhile have historically pushed policies that are at least believed by most voters to be better economically for the upper half of the chart (taxes bad) but have of late been pushing much more populist policies (tariffs) in alignment with the lower left as cover for the oligarchic class continuing to amass wealth and power. I believe the Ds pushing student loan forgiveness is a good example in the opposite direction. This board knows millions (especially Gen X and Millenials) are hamstrung and need help, but it had a lot of play for the Rs as being a bailout for wealthy liberals.

If the coalitions are Rs with the oligarchs and the low-ed, low-income population vs. cosmopolitan middle/upper class and educated voters, there are more of the former than the latter. The Ds MUST find a way to reconnect with the non-MAGA lower left, but the cultural and now policy pull of each party will be very tough to overcome.

I understand all of that.

Rs have a 40-50 year head start. They’ve steadily built and expanded a vast propaganda network targeting working class uneducated people. They appeal to fear and anger, and it works.

This has gotten worse during the social media era, in part with the help of our political enemies like China and Russia. The propaganda network is expansive and incessant, pushed into Facebook and X and YouTube feeds.

There is little Ds can do in the short term to correct course and reach out to lower- and middle-class voters who have limited ability to discern fact from fiction. Media literacy is a huge conundrum.

 

[rodoheel]

Honest question for you. Since you believe someone who is guilty of a crime should be prosecuted no matter what. How do you feel about the tens of millions of illegal immigrants that broke the law entering our country? Does this put you on the side of being okay with mass deportation since they all broke the law?

There are two different questions: did they break the law and, if so, should the punishment be deportation.

This question is obviously very practically and legally difficult. Because any person accused of illegally entering the country is entitled to due process of law. And immigration courts are badly understaffed and underfunded - something Congress tried to make progress towards fixing, but Trump sent down. So convening removal hearings for 12 million people, or however many you think it is, is going to be an absolute logistical nightmare. it's one of the reasons I don't think the Trump admin will actually attempt mass deportation; that was just red meat for the base. And if they do, they will likely try to do it illegally, by denying due process and trying to skip removal hearings or turning them into perfunctory farces.

it is also impossible to make any judgment about "illegal immigrants" on a blanket basis because the circumstances of them entering the country are very different. Many entered the country 5, 10, 20, 30 years ago. Many were brought here against their will. Many were children or babies when they entered. Many entered legally and then remained here beyond when they were authorized, in some instances legitimately not knowing they were not entitled to stay. Many may be in the process of obtaining citizenship. These are individual circumstances that have to be considered and assessed as part of any removal hearing, and there are often not easy answers.

Then, of course, there's the practical reality of deportation. What are we going to do in situations where we decide that parents must be removed but they have minor children who were born here and are US citizens? Are we going to leave them orphaned or force them into foster care? Are we going to forcibly deport lawful American citizens? If the latter, how do we plan to force foreign countries to accept people who are citizens of a different country? And what about the actual cost of deportation? Contrary to what MAGAs seem to think we can't just drop all of these people off at the Mexican border and wave goodbye. We are going to be flying them, and all of their worldly possessions, all over the world, at our own expense. What if they own real property or personal property that can't easily be moved (automobiles, for example) in the US? Are we just going to confiscate it on behalf of the government?

And then of course there's the question of whether doing all of this is going to benefit the rest of us at all. Whatever you think about the net impact of immigrants on the economy, the sheer cost of locating them all, and detaining them all, and holding hearings for them all, and deporting them all, will be immense. And the direct and indirect impacts on the economy of removing millions of people from it will be immediate and immense. We're going to take millions of people who are buying groceries and gas and paying rent and utility bills and working in all sorts of sectors and being charged sales tax and property tax and we're going to turn them into a drain on public resources instead. I find it difficult to conceive how anyone could possibly think this is good policy.

Ultimately I have no problem with continuing the existing process we have for assessing whether people are here legally, though that system is badly in need of reform and extra resources. I have no problem with people who commit crimes and are then found to be here illegally being subject to those processes. What I do have a problem with is devoting massive public resources in trying to find, detain, and deport en masse, regardless of individual circumstance, every single person who ever entered the country illegally.

 

[heel17]

I understand all of that.

Rs have a 40-50 year head start. They’ve steadily built and expanded a vast propaganda network targeting working class uneducated people. They appeal to fear and anger, and it works.

This has gotten worse during the social media era, in part with the help of our political enemies like China and Russia. The propaganda network is expansive and incessant, pushed into Facebook and X and YouTube feeds.

There is little Ds can do in the short term to correct course and reach out to lower- and middle-class voters who have limited ability to discern fact from fiction. Media literacy is a huge conundrum.

Then the way forward is to act and "code" as a moderate or as a "common man" and find an economic message / opponent to go after and ram it home every single day. Obama won on healthcare, opportunity, and jobs while seeming like a cool dude to the millions of voters who barely pay attention.

Honestly I think "weird" worked for a bit for the Dems as it highlighted to the 5-10% of persuadable swing state voters that RFK Jr, JD Vance, Trump, and their clown car is indeed a clown car. Run as the "normal" person who is fighting for the little guy of all stripes.

 

[EyeballKid]

Then the way forward is to act and "code" as a moderate or as a "common man" and find an economic message / opponent to go after and ram it home every single day. Obama won on healthcare, opportunity, and jobs while seeming like a cool dude to the millions of voters who barely pay attention.

Honestly I think "weird" worked for a bit for the Dems as it highlighted to the 5-10% of persuadable swing state voters that RFK Jr, JD Vance, Trump, and their clown car is indeed a clown car. Run as the "normal" person who is fighting for the little guy of all stripes.

Obama was a once-in-a-lifetime communicator. Simply “finding” another of him is an impossible task.

 

[finesse]

I understand all of that.

Rs have a 40-50 year head start. They’ve steadily built and expanded a vast propaganda network targeting working class uneducated people. They appeal to fear and anger, and it works.

This has gotten worse during the social media era, in part with the help of our political enemies like China and Russia. The propaganda network is expansive and incessant, pushed into Facebook and X and YouTube feeds.

There is little Ds can do in the short term to correct course and reach out to lower- and middle-class voters who have limited ability to discern fact from fiction. Media literacy is a huge conundrum.

That's why I keep on about the need to reach some agreed standard of evidence. I'm a skeptic by nurture and nature and it takes time and multiple sources to find anything close to trustworthy. I rely a lot on the Economist, IBJ and the Pew Foundation as starting points. All seem a little more above the common fray. I absolutely refuse to wallow in social media, the blogosphere or the like. If I can't easily crosscheck time, I'm wasting my time.

Back to the point, if we can't agree on shared facts, we aren't getting anywhere on solving differences. It might be that their answer is that they expect total capitulation. I'm not sure what we could do. I don't think it's a misguided analogy to mention how many surrender treaties have laid the ground for the next war.

 

[wmheel1287]

Fair enough. I believe that Trump was only prosecuted because he upsets the political machine like no other person in modern history. Not because he committed serious crimes.

Honest question for you. Since you believe someone who is guilty of a crime should be prosecuted no matter what. How do you feel about the tens of millions of illegal immigrants that broke the law entering our country? Does this put you on the side of being okay with mass deportation since they all broke the law?

I think that's a fair question. I do think criminality should be prosecuted. I also think that would be an incredible self inflicted wound because we do need those.people
They completely fuel segments of our economy and they are treated as chattel by people who label them criminals but don't admit that they are necessary.

Our legal immigration system does not adequately supply labor. It just does not. I would propose that we institute a workable immigration system that is largely open to anyone willing to be productive and work. Do that and you have my blessing to shoot anyone crossing the border illegally without a trial or even apprehension.

I think the notion that we can "secure the border" without first fixing the legal path to immigration is the most wildly stupid idea I've ever heard. It's even dumber than "Just Say No" and that's saying something.

 

[HeelingAg]

Now use the inside and think about how petty these are compared to killing women through outlawing abortion.

What is the real criminal rate for immigrants according to anybody who has any kind of legitimate statistics. What is the last wave of immigration that actually damaged America?

Will you ever differentiate immigration and drug trafficking which mostly are done by legals. After all, 5 lbs. of fentanyl is the the equivalent of 125-250 lbs of heroin. It's a lot easier to get it in with legals than facing the extra scrutiny.

I mean, the entire post is filled with strawmen and blatant lies from the trump campaign. Undocumented folks commit fewer crimes and contribute more to safety nets than take - this is established in the data. The trump admin literally wrote the guidelines for trans care in prisons - lie. The student loan forgiveness plan was a variation of a bailout we give to corporations, or act as an economic stimulus - less individual debt in society is a well established means for stimulating an economy and the US was emerging from the worst economic downturn in decades. The gov gave out billions in eventually forgiven loans to businesses (small to multinational) during the pandemic. Etc etc.

Sad that folks can get taken for such a ride by thr likes of Murdoch ghouls, Steven Cheung, Steven Miller, and Trump himself.

 

[wmheel1287]

Obama was a once-in-a-lifetime communicator. Simply “finding” another of him is an impossible task.

I disagree with this. Trust me, stage performance and connecting with people isn't that grand of a skill. I do it every day. I'm not unique.

 

[rodoheel]

Obama was a once-in-a-lifetime communicator. Simply “finding” another of him is an impossible task.

Well the easiest thing to do would be to just rope in his wife, who is just as good a communicator. But I don't think she has any interest.

 

[rodoheel]

I would propose that we institute a workable immigration system that is largely open to anyone willing to be productive and work. Do that and you have my blessing to shoot anyone crossing the border illegally without a trial or even apprehension.

100% with you on sentence one. 100% not with you on sentence two.

 

[altmin]

If the mass deportation is implemented ( I have my doubts) then I would support as part of the plan to identify any employer who hired said captured illegal immigrant who will be deported and charge that employer with a felony for each illegal hired with a punishment up to 20 years in prison.

This would deter employers from hiring illegals which in turn would deter illegals from entering our country to seek employment for a better way of life.

I have long said this was the real solution to the problem, but the GOP want the illegal immigrants - 1 for the bogeyman and 2 for the cheap labor to enrich their overlords.

Farmers remain pro-GOP despite knowing that a crackdown would spell disaster on their livelihood, because they know the con and that the GOP will never act.

The wild card here is Trump who lies, misspeaks, lies to cover misspeaking, claims he actually did something, will do something he never intended just because he said he would do it, etc etc - i.e. he is old dynamite that is sweating nitroglycerin. The really dangerous thing is you have a pyromaniac in Stephen Miller ready to get his hands on the sticks.

 

[rodoheel]

E-Verify, which was created by a Democratic president, is just sitting right there if we want to use it. But I'm confident the small business owners who are overwhelmingly conservative have no desire to use it.

 

[Icky Mettle]

I have long said this was the real solution to the problem, but the GOP want the illegal immigrants - 1 for the bogeyman and 2 for the cheap labor to enrich their overlords.

Farmers remain pro-GOP despite knowing that a crackdown would spell disaster on their livelihood, because they know the con and that the GOP will never act.

The wild card here is Trump who lies, misspeaks, lies to cover misspeaking, claims he actually did something, will do something he never intended just because he said he would do it, etc etc - i.e. he is old dynamite that is sweating nitroglycerin. The really dangerous thing is you have a pyromaniac in Stephen Miller ready to get his hands on the sticks.

The bogeyman factor is huge. Kinda wish the Dems would come out and call it for what it is, but I know that would just result in conservative backlash conflating it with wanting “open borders.”

 

[Mulberry Heel]

Then the way forward is to act and "code" as a moderate or as a "common man" and find an economic message / opponent to go after and ram it home every single day. Obama won on healthcare, opportunity, and jobs while seeming like a cool dude to the millions of voters who barely pay attention.

Honestly I think "weird" worked for a bit for the Dems as it highlighted to the 5-10% of persuadable swing state voters that RFK Jr, JD Vance, Trump, and their clown car is indeed a clown car. Run as the "normal" person who is fighting for the little guy of all stripes.

And yet after about three weeks they just stopped using the weird term and ignored it. It does seem as if her campaign switched strategies after she was nominated. They should have continued to go at Trump directly, but instead they started courting Never Trump Republicans. Maybe the reason they stopped calling Trump Republicans weirdos was because they were afraid it would also turn off Republicans they were trying to recruit. And that was a huge mistake - I've read that after all of her campaign's vigorous efforts to win over Republicans who were sick of Trump, she got the exact same percentage of the GOP vote that Biden got - 6%. Hopefully this disaster will finally convince even the Democratic high command that appealing to Republicans isn't a winning strategy in the Age of Trump -they belong to him now, and they're not leaving the cult for anything or anyone else.

 

[altmin]