Where do we go from here?

[superrific]

So when was the last time you voted for a Democrat House, Senate or Presidential candidate? If you’ve never done that, you are not a split ticket voter.

Not to mention that his claim to being an "average voter" because he splits his ticket is sort of laughable. The vast majority of voters in the US are not split ticket voters.

 

[Ramrouser]

Just to be clear what we're talking about here, these are the charges against your partner:

Ray Smith: Trump campaign attorney (12 charges)

• One count: Violation of the Georgia RICO Act.
• Three counts: Solicitation of violation of oath by public officer.
• Two counts: False statements and writings.
• One count: Conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer.
• Two counts: Conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree.
• Two counts: Conspiracy to commit false statements and writings.
• One count: Conspiracy to commit filing false documents.

And this is the indictment, if anyone wants to read it: https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2023/08/CRIMINAL-INDICTMENT-Trump-Fulton-County-GA.pdf

So your law partner is alleged to have been one of the main people who presented false information about the 2020 election to the Georgia legislature, and then worked with the alternate electors to coordinate their knowing violation of the law by signing a separate electoral ballot, with the intent it be used by VP Pence to count Georgia's votes for Trump rather than Biden, notwithstanding that there was no reasonable question whatsoever that Biden had won Georgia.

You think you might be just a little bit misinformed about matters of politics?

As you are aware, accusations or allegations in criminal indictments or civil complaints can sound very menacing and evil.

Just to be clear what we're talking about here, these are the charges against your partner:

Ray Smith: Trump campaign attorney (12 charges)

• One count: Violation of the Georgia RICO Act.
• Three counts: Solicitation of violation of oath by public officer.
• Two counts: False statements and writings.
• One count: Conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer.
• Two counts: Conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree.
• Two counts: Conspiracy to commit false statements and writings.
• One count: Conspiracy to commit filing false documents.

And this is the indictment, if anyone wants to read it: https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2023/08/CRIMINAL-INDICTMENT-Trump-Fulton-County-GA.pdf

So your law partner is alleged to have been one of the main people who presented false information about the 2020 election to the Georgia legislature, and then worked with the alternate electors to coordinate their knowing violation of the law by signing a separate electoral ballot, with the intent it be used by VP Pence to count Georgia's votes for Trump rather than Biden, notwithstanding that there was no reasonable question whatsoever that Biden had won Georgia.

You think you might be just a little bit misinformed about matters of politics?

As you are well aware, accusations or allegations in a criminal indictment or a civil complaint can sound menacing and evil. You have to prove guilt and the DA is nowhere near proving its case against this defendant or the other defendants. Fani's office is about to be removed from the case and that will mean the end of this whole case.

 

[Ramrouser]

It's not accurate. Also, he's again talking in ways that litigators just don't. For instance, nothing was pointed out by the NY appellate court, because the court has not issued an opinion. It might have been pointed out at oral argument by one of the judges, but that's not what a litigator would say.

distinction without a difference. I'm speaking casually on a message board not writing a legal brief. I listened to oral argument and I can assure you several of the appellate judges have series issues with the case below based upon their questioning at the hearing. Obviously, we'll wait for the written opinion.

 

[lawtig02]

As you are aware, accusations or allegations in criminal indictments or civil complaints can sound very menacing and evil.

As you are well aware, accusations or allegations in a criminal indictment or a civil complaint can sound menacing and evil. You have to prove guilt and the DA is nowhere near proving its case against this defendant or the other defendants. Fani's office is about to be removed from the case and that will mean the end of this whole case.

Did your partner work to have the alternate slate of electors sign a ballot that awarded Georgia's electoral votes to Donald Trump? That seems like a pretty straightforward yes or no question.

 

[superrific]

distinction without a difference. I'm speaking casually on a message board not writing a legal brief. I listened to oral argument and I can assure you several of the appellate judges have series issues with the case below based upon their questioning at the hearing. Obviously, we'll wait for the written opinion.

I'm not arguing with you any further about this. It's not whether it's on a message board or not, and this is only a minor point. The bigger problems are your complete mischaracterization of the NY proceeding; the fact that you apparently do not understand conflicts of interest at all; that you are unaware of basic issues about how different law enforcement agencies can and cannot act; that you interpret career choices as nefarious plots, etc.

And if you are a lawyer -- an obviously shitty one -- I don't care. The vast majority of your posts are demonstrably wrong.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Happy to share. I grew up in a small, rural town and grew up in a working class family. I know the term "working class" gets debated as to its true meaning, but I'd say that my parents were absolutely working class. My dad didn't finish high school and my mom has a GED. My dad was a construction worker and my mom was a part-time secretary. The highest annual income they ever earned together was ~$32,000 in mid-2000's dollars; I know this because I saw their Social Security income history when I was helping my mom file for my dad's survivor benefits after he died when I was in college. I grew up in a family where I had 62 first cousins, and I was ultimately the first of the cousins to attend or graduate from college. I say all of that to say, my entire family was largely non-college-educated and working class, and the overwhelming vast majority of my family still live in (and never once left) Robeson County. I grew up in the Southern Baptist church- the twice-on-Sundays, once-on-Wednesdays kind.

All of that to say, my Republican upbringing stemmed from the fact that I grew up in a largely lower-income, working class, rural, evangelical Christian environment. We supported the Republican Party because they were the party of God-fearing, Jesus-loving, rules-based law and order, support the troops, and family values. When you grow up in that kind of environment, you are naturally afraid of change, of diversity, and of people of different backgrounds and walks of life. It doesn't inherently make anyone coming from that environment a bad person; it just means that they are extraordinarily limited in the kind of worldly experiential opportunities that I believe have moderated me significantly.

I even maintained my Republican bonafides all throughout my time at UNC- I voted for John McCain and Mitt Romney while I was in college- but I definitely credit my experience at UNC with being the beginning of my ideological moderation. Yet, I still voted for Trump the first time, barely two years removed from graduating from college and in my mid-20's, because old Republican habits died hard for me, and because the opponent was Hillary Clinton, whom I'd grown up to believe was a horrible person and an even worse presidential candidate. I wouldn't say that I *liked* Trump- I voted for John Kasich in the primary and hoped that literally any one of the other Republican contenders would beat him- but once he was the Republican nominee I had very little hesitation at the time to vote for him.

The beginning of the end for me with regard to my support of Trump was two-fold: the poor way that he handled the Charlottesville tragedy in 2017 by refusing to condemn white supremacists and anti-semites, followed by the disastrous summit in Finland in 2018 where he stood next to Vladimir Putin in front of the entire world and said that the United States intelligence community was a bunch of liars and that he believed the Russians over our own.

I may be more conservative ideologically than many folks in the Democratic Party, but I have zero doubts or questions as to whether the Democratic Party- regardless of what ideological or policy differences I may have on occasion- demands honor, decency, and character from its leaders; or whether the Democratic Party stands for rules-based law and order; or whether the Democratic Party believes in America's role as a global defender of freedom or democracy; or whether the Democratic Party can be trusted with our most sensitive national secrets. That's why I vote Democratic now, and why I will continue to do so for as long as the Republican Party is no longer the conservative party that it claims to be.

Thank you for spending your time to write and post this, I really appreciate the background information. As someone who used to vote for the republican party, I'm curious how you viewed democrats back during that time. Did you feel like they did not represent your beliefs, or that they looked down on you, didn't care about your hardships (economically, for example), or other things? I ask because I think the democratic party is going to have to change in order to move forward stronger from this election - which is something that must happen - and there's none better to ask these questions to than folks who either used to vote for republicans or (sane ones) who still vote for republicans, imo.

 

[CFordUNC]

Thank you for spending your time to write and post this, I really appreciate the background information. As someone who used to vote for the republican party, I'm curious how you viewed democrats back during that time. Did you feel like they did not represent your beliefs, or that they looked down on you, didn't care about your hardships (economically, for example), or other things? I ask because I think the democratic party is going to have to change in order to move forward stronger from this election - which is something that must happen - and there's none better to ask these questions to than folks who either used to vote for republicans or (sane ones) who still vote for republicans, imo.

Great questions! I think I viewed Democrats in about the exact same way as the current Republican Party still views them: fun to annoy and irritate and troll. I used to love brandishing my copy of Ann Coulter's "How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)." But then I grew up and realized that juvenile trolling and antagonism is not only absurd but completely counterproductive to building a better life and a better country for ALL of us Americans. I also began to take the time to try to actually understand policy issues instead of reflexively opposing anything and everything just because it "came from the other side." Once I began to understand policy issues, and once I began to recognize that the GOP hasn't been a governing party in years and has no desire to be one again, I started to recognize that even if I don't always align with the Democratic Party on everything ideologically or policy-wise, I very much align with the Democratic Party in its well-intentioned attempts to promote progress, equality, and a 'rising tide lifts all boats' mantra in governing.

In my personal view, the Democrats don't have *that* much ground to make up with the American electorate. They need to make tweaks rather than wholesale changes. They lost this 50/50 election by the most razor-thin of margins; it happens. Good parties with good policies sometimes lose elections. Instead of changing ideologically or policy-wise, I think that the Democrats need to create their own media apparatus that helps them to meet and talk to people exactly where they are, not in an ivory tower or in the Ivy League faculty lounge, but on the assembly lines and on the farms and in the automotive repair shops and in the factories and in the truck stops across America. Democrats have policy positions that are generally wildly popular when juxtaposed against Republican policy positions in blind polling. They need to figure out ways to meet people where they are, talk to them how they talk, and show them how and why the Democratic Party has a plan to provide them with healthcare, education, infrastructure renewal, child care support, and a social safety net helping hand when needed- and that the Republican Party absolutely does not.

 

[wmheel1287]

I never claim to be the perfect average man, but I’m way closer to a political moderate/swing voter than 99% of people who post on here, based on the mere fact that so few here vote for any Republicans - while I routinely split my ticket and vote based on the candidate and not simply the party.

I’ve always said I’m center-right and not dead center. But I do bring a perspective to the board that could be valuable to people if they would take some of my posts as a differing perspective that comes from a place of good faith.

Perhaps you should start posting in good faith if you want your posts to be taken that way. There are people here who are FAR more vociferous than you and far more in the MAGA camp who i don't read as disengenuous and snark laden. Take it for what it's worth, but nearly everything you post reads that way based on context, timing, and circumstance.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Great questions! I think I viewed Democrats in about the exact same way as the current Republican Party still views them: fun to annoy and irritate and troll. I used to love brandishing my copy of Ann Coulter's "How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)." But then I grew up and realized that juvenile trolling and antagonism is not only absurd but completely counterproductive to building a better life and a better country for ALL of us Americans. I also began to take the time to try to actually understand policy issues instead of reflexively opposing anything and everything just because it "came from the other side." Once I began to understand policy issues, and once I began to recognize that the GOP hasn't been a governing party in years and has no desire to be one again, I started to recognize that even if I don't always align with the Democratic Party on everything ideologically or policy-wise, I very much align with the Democratic Party in its well-intentioned attempts to promote progress, equality, and a 'rising tide lifts all boats' mantra in governing.

In my personal view, the Democrats don't have *that* much ground to make up with the American electorate. They need to make tweaks rather than wholesale changes. They lost this 50/50 election by the most razor-thin of margins; it happens. Good parties with good policies sometimes lose elections. Instead of changing ideologically or policy-wise, I think that the Democrats need to create their own media apparatus that helps them to meet and talk to people exactly where they are, not in an ivory tower or in the Ivy League faculty lounge, but on the assembly lines and on the farms and in the automotive repair shops and in the factories and in the truck stops across America. Democrats have policy positions that are generally wildly popular when juxtaposed against Republican policy positions in blind polling. They need to figure out ways to meet people where they are, talk to them how they talk, and show them how and why the Democratic Party has a plan to provide them with healthcare, education, infrastructure renewal, child care support, and a social safety net helping hand when needed- and that the Republican Party absolutely does not.

Thank you so much for writing this out. I have enjoyed reading it, and I hope that we can gain from folks' experiences similar to yourself. I do admit that I am more negative than you regarding going forward. I feel like there needs to be significant change in the party's direction along with messaging, and overall persona - losing like this (all three) to a party as fucking insane, hateful, selfish as the current maga party is an indication, imo.

 

[LeoBloom]

In fairness, if he's talking about a long-term plan, his comment makes more sense. Paine said he was likely talking about the long-term.

And it's also true that Dems didn't have much of an industrial policy until Biden invested a lot more into it. Obama's presidency didn't really focus on that issue. It's an open question, of course, whether it would make a difference. To me Trumpism is almost fully explained by white identity politics mixed with Christian fundamentalism. I think the economic anxiety piece has always been mostly bullshit.

That said, Paine's argument is that people become more focused on their bigotry when they believe that they aren't being properly protected by the political system. It makes them angry and then they direct the anger outwards. I mean, maybe? He can't prove it; I can't prove him wrong. I think most of the anger is artificial, and the economic anxiety piece is backfilling.

Ah. Yes, that is different if he's talking long-term plans.

 

[Carolina Fever]

Thank you so much for writing this out. I have enjoyed reading it, and I hope that we can gain from folks' experiences similar to yourself. I do admit that I am more negative than you regarding going forward. I feel like there needs to be significant change in the party's direction along with messaging, and overall persona - losing like this (all three) to a party as fucking insane, hateful, selfish as the current maga party is an indication, imo.

I don't think it's the Democratic party. I think, unfortunately, this is just how the majority of Americans are right now.

 

[stankeylegjones]

I don't think it's the Democratic party. I think, unfortunately, this is just how the majority of Americans are right now.

I’m not following you. Can you elaborate?

 

[Carolina Fever]

I’m not following you. Can you elaborate?

I don't think it is anything the Dems are or aren't doing. It's just how the country is right now. There is no reason anyone should support Trump. It shouldn't even matter with a person like that. Unfortunately, half of the country does for some reason. Mostly it comes.from racism, bigotry, and greed. But a lot of people are just too ignorant to get out of their own way, too.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

Why do the Democrats need a plan for this? It’s not like the Pubs had a plan. Tariffs were their plan? If people took that as a valid plan then the Dems should just make up plans too.

The Trumper plan for these Rust Belt states is to blatantly lie to people and tell them that they'll raise tariffs and that will force companies to bring all their old manufacturing jobs back to their dying towns and cities, and they'll roll back all of these social advances by LGBTQ people and uppity women and minorities and sexual freedoms and people in the Midwest can all party just like it's 1972 again. And it's all bullshit of course, but since that's exactly what they want to hear so they buy it.

 

[Carolina Fever]

The Trumper plan for these Rust Belt states is to blatantly lie to people and tell them that they'll raise tariffs and that will force companies to bring all their old manufacturing jobs back to their dying towns and cities, and they'll roll back all of these social advances by LGBTQ people and uppity women and minorities and sexual freedoms and people in the Midwest can all party just like it's 1972 again. And it's all bullshit of course, but since that's exactly what they want to hear they buy it.

And some people here don't want to believe that the majority of Americans are just hateful and deplorable people who can't be reached no matter what.

 

[mpaer]

The Trumper plan for these Rust Belt states is to blatantly lie to people and tell them that they'll raise tariffs and that will force companies to bring all their old manufacturing jobs back to their dying towns and cities, and they'll roll back all of these social advances by LGBTQ people and uppity women and minorities and sexual freedoms and people in the Midwest can all party just like it's 1972 again. And it's all bullshit of course, but since that's exactly what they want to hear they buy it.

And cut all their benefits

 

[stankeylegjones]

I don't think it is anything the Dems are or aren't doing. It's just how the country is right now. There is no reason anyone should support Trump. It shouldn't even matter with a person like that. Unfortunately, have of the country does for some reason. Mostly it comes.from racism, bigotry, and greed. But a lot of people are just too ignorant to get out of their own way, too.

Thank you for elaborating.
I still think many voters who voted for the magats did so out of economic struggles, which led them to not think clearly. But still, as you rightly put it, a whole lot of racists and bigots also voted.

 

[Paine]

Understanding the Immigrant Swing Toward Trump

Liberal pundits have puzzled over increasing support for Trump by immigrants and people of color. To understand the trend, we should look to economic issues and the way institutions like unions and churches affect political socialization.

jacobin.com

 

[hedge]

I still think many voters who voted for the magats did so out of economic struggles, which led them to not think clearly. But still, as you rightly put it, a whole lot of racists and bigots also voted.

Seems like politics these days is a lot like sports fandom. I know many people are fans of a team due to some personal connection (you went to that school or you're from the city where the team is based or you moved there, whatever). Unfortunately there are only two teams in this sport and the other side is the most hated rival. This isn't everybody, to be sure, but I think it's a lot more than anybody wants to admit. It's not about policy or messaging or any of that, it's just you live around lots of people that are fans of one of the teams and so you're a fan of that team. I think this applies to Maga more than dems or traditional repubs. They probably won't even care if Trump's policies cause their team to lose, they'll still be a fan of their team, just like sports fans don't stop being fans of their teams every time they lose, the reactions of some fans on message boards every time their team loses notwithstanding...

 

[LeoBloom]

Understanding the Immigrant Swing Toward Trump

Liberal pundits have puzzled over increasing support for Trump by immigrants and people of color. To understand the trend, we should look to economic issues and the way institutions like unions and churches affect political socialization.

jacobin.com

I was not familiar with this publication until you posted some of their articles and I still have not delved into what exactly it is. It does not appear to be an academic publication, which is fine, but they do, I believe, need to support some of their claims. For instance:
"Numerous studies show that Latinos and Asians are less likely to identify with either the Democratic or Republican Party compared to white and black voters." They need to cite these specific studies so I can know how they were conducted, within what groups were these studies done, and what exactly are the numbers they are talking about. Without that information, it is hard for me to take their conclusions as other than just mere speculation.

Yes, they provide a lot of anecdotal evidence based on interacting with a specific immigrant group in Hawaii. I do not mean that their conclusions are all invalid. However, their conclusions also may be jumps based on minimal actual data.

For one, Hawaii, as they mention, is unique. Getting some goods to Hawaii is more difficult then other states. How does that factor into all of this?
Surely it is not a surprise that immigrants from this community who consume their news from Fox, Newsmax, etc. are more predisposed to support Trump? Also, surely it is not a surprise that immigrants who are deeply involved in evangelical churches are more likely to be conservative?

I get what this is saying or trying to say - there are more factors than just racism and sexism. OK, yes, but when a group is consuming media from places that clearly have the demonization of others as part of their rasion d'etre, how minimal is the racism and sexism? What about the churches these evangelical immigrants attend? Are they being bombarded from the pulpit and the pew with how evil certain politicians are? How anti-Christian some politicians are?

I do not think only racism and sexism were the reason for some of these votes. Obviously, economic concerns played a significant role. Maybe even the most significant.

Union members in this piece skewed Democratic. No surprise there either. But here's the thing if we are talking about going forward: conservatives have spent decades denigrating unions, equating them with communism, with a lack of freedom, with corruption, etc. Unions do not have the power they once had. In the south, they are basically non existent. Personally, I am very pro union. But how do we bring them back, make them stronger after so much denigration?

What realistic alternatives do we have to evangelical churches? I don't know.