Where do we go from here?

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Paine said:
That’s considered an insult to you?

All I’m saying is, if I was half as cynical as a lot of you, I wouldn’t even post about politics, follow politics, or talk to anyone about politics. If you think nothing makes a difference, just stop talking about it.

Especially on a thread titled “where do we go from here?” This is about the path forward. Not sitting around and moping about the current state of things. If you think nothing matters, fine. Don’t bring it here when I’m trying to discuss specifics of a piece. It’s not helpful.
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Any statement that begins, “All due respect….” is going to be an insult.

It’s similar to the phrase(s), “Let me be honest…../Honestly……/I’m going to be frank…..”…….one hears the speaker say such words and one knows the speaker is lying.

You closed with, “Do you understand what politics is?”

You don’t see that statement as an insult?

OK.
 
Paine said:
That’s considered an insult to you?

All I’m saying is, if I was half as cynical as a lot of you, I wouldn’t even post about politics, follow politics, or talk to anyone about politics. If you think nothing makes a difference, just stop talking about it.

Especially on a thread titled “where do we go from here?” This is about the path forward. Not sitting around and moping about the current state of things. If you think nothing matters, fine. Don’t bring it here when I’m trying to discuss specifics of a piece. It’s not helpful.
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Now it's my turn to respond to you. I never said nothing matters. You took that from.it because you don't like my point of view. I said that show, spectacle, and bombast matter. I said that policy doesn't move most voters and it specifically does not move the working class.

You want a path forward? Then you'd better be willing to acknowledge that all the reading, research, and scholarly thought in the world isn't going to change the fact that Americans crave a cult of personality currently.

The ONLY path forward that I see to winning for Democrats is to build a cult of personality in the same way that Republicans have built around Trump. Policy...even enormously popular and successful policy will not dent that.

We are in a post-truth society. What matters totally is perception and showmanship.

Take it from someone who turns classes into performance and "entertains" for a living. They don't want anything more or less than leaving feeling better than they came in, substance be damned.

Trump is circus entertainment and that is preferable to most of the country.
 
wmheel1287 said:
Now it's my turn to respond to you. I never said nothing matters. You took that from.it because you don't like my point of view. I said that show, spectacle, and bombast matter. I said that policy doesn't move most voters and it specifically does not move the working class.

You want a path forward? Then you'd better be willing to acknowledge that all the reading, research, and scholarly thought in the world isn't going to change the fact that Americans crave a cult of personality currently.

The ONLY path forward that I see to winning for Democrats is to build a cult of personality in the same way that Republicans have built around Trump. Policy...even enormously popular and successful policy will not dent that.

We are in a post-truth society. What matters totally is perception and showmanship.

Take it from someone who turns classes into performance and "entertains" for a living. They don't want anything more or less than leaving feeling better than they came in, substance be damned.

Trump is circus entertainment and that is preferable to most of the country.
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I really believe reality TV and social media has a lot to do with why things are like that, too. Just dumbed down the population even more
 
I'm sure we're in reruns, but....

"Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex."
 
Paine said:
Keep blaming the voters, surely that will help.
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Recognizing what people want is not blaming.

I don't like that's what they want, but it is.

As for what I originally said, you're the one that blew it out of proportion. I said that the article you posted assumes that the voter disconnect is a policy problem. I said I did not think that was the case.

You blew that up into me saying that "nothing matters to voters" which was never what I said.

It's fine that you disagree with me but at least don't take it further than what I said. I'm cynical enough without needing to be misquoted.

By the way, the populace has been telling us for years what they want. What happens every time some celebrity or athlete speaks up with a valid societal concern? "Shut up and dribble".

This recent election is just a further migration of that mindset. They want entertainment and a team to cheer for.

Either we will figure out how to do rhat or we will continue to lose them.
 
Paine said:
Maybe should’ve said something along the lines of “I mean this genuinely” instead of “all due respect.” It was a genuine question. I just can’t understand following a politics board and actively posting on it while simultaneously thinking voters are just too dumb/too far gone/too racist/too sexist or whatever. It doesn’t logically compute.

Politics is about convincing the voters that we have and winning power. If you don’t think that’s possible, what’s the point?
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When I hear something such as, “I mean this genuinely……,” I think the speaker is a liar.

Just state your opinion.
 
Paine said:
I don’t think what you’re saying is as disconnected from what I’m saying as you’re making it out to be. Part of crafting a team that people want to cheer for is advocating for and pushing forth easily understood policy proposals. To say that it doesn’t matter at all is silly.
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And im saying that the policy proposals don't matter so long as they make the audience feel good. Trump’s policy proposals are literally to end the American economy.

The real problem as I see it is finding someone willing to be simultaneously good and well meaning while lying without compunction toward the goal of being elected. Generally those personality traits don't pair well.
 
Paine said:
So maybe we should put forth policies that make people feel good? All I’ve been told by liberals for my entire political life is that left wing policy proposals shouldn’t be pressed because they’re unrealistic and people will never vote for them.

Now, a lot of the same people are saying policy doesn’t matter at all and people just want to feel good.

Not saying you’re someone who said the latter, but I’ve noticed a considerable overlap in those opinions.
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Correct...so now you've got to find a way to not lose people like me who think leftists policy proposals are as much bunk as Trump’s.

Find a way to convince me that you're just running the show for those who want it but you won't run us into the ditch economically with ideas that are poorly conceived.

That's the needle that has to be threaded.
 
Paine said:
We can agree to disagree. Democrats beat Trump with a competitive primary IMO.
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Are you assuming the Biden would have or should have withdrawn? If he didn't, and with him leading us to the best post pandemic recovery of the G7, you'd have to both wonder why he would and what affect that might have on the recovery, who do you think would have beat him out?
 
I think that would have been a sure fire way for him to have never been taken seriously as a president. I don't see that being good for the party or country. He'd have probably lost if he ran on it and people would have felt betrayed if he announced it just after election.
 
I didn't get those insinuations but, in fairness, I wasn't likely to. I do think that I would have gotten some of that if it was an actual subtext. I'm not buying that a lot of of people voted for him on that premise. They might have with that hope, but those are not the same.
 
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Paine said:
Okay, so you’re just arguing semantics now. My opinion is clear.
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It’s not semantics.

I was taught in 9th grade to not preface opinions with, “I think….” or “to be honest” or “I genuinely….”

You’re writing or speaking…..state your opinion…..

And, if you say something like, “To be honest…..,” I’m convinced you’re lying.
 
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