Where do we go from here?

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All of that rings true to me, but I still don't think this cat is an attorney. There are neon blinking gaps in his knowledge and understanding.

Plus, he claimed to be a litigation attorney. That's what the poseurs always say, because it's the only type of attorney they know. And they draw on what they see on TV for reference. I mean, I suppose it's possible that all these fools just happen to cluster in an area of the law that employs maybe 20% of attorneys, but you don't find it suspicious that these questionable attorneys never work in-house at a company, or specialize in transactions or do corporate and commercial law?
Whatever. I'm not going to waste my time "proving" to a guy on a message board that I'm an experienced attorney who is a member of two state bars; has had an AV rating for 25+ years; no disciplinary actions against me in my career (it was insinuated that I lie to the courts); and have actual clients who pay me a significant hourly rate to represent them in federal and state courts. Are you in private practice?
 
Whatever. I'm not going to waste my time "proving" to a guy on a message board that I'm an experienced attorney who is a member of two state bars; has had an AV rating for 25+ years; no disciplinary actions against me in my career (it was insinuated that I lie to the courts); and have actual clients who pay me a significant hourly rate to represent them in federal and state courts. Are you in private practice?
To be clear, I have no idea if you lie to the courts. Your partner certainly did, though.
 
To be clear, I have no idea if you lie to the courts. Your partner certainly did, though.
He presented to the court the best evidence available at that time in representing his client. Ray will be vindicated in the long run. He has tons of support from most of the judges on the Fulton Superior Court and in the appellate courts.

I do not get involved in political/election lawsuits. In retrospect, that was a smart decision on my part.
 
Based on my knowledge of his work, Frank is taking the long view. I’d wager that he’d argue CHIPS and IRA were too little, too late.
I mean, that's fair. There are a couple of points:

1. As you know, I get quite taken aback by the accusations that Dems just "weren't listening to the working class or offering them anything" in this election. It's just not true and it's even kind of silly.

As a long-term proposition, it's more credible. People's partisanship tends to crystallize at a fairly young age and doesn't change all that much with time. So it's possible that Dems are still being dinged for things that may or may not have happened two decades ago.

That said, the exit poll data I saw showed Gen X to be the most Trump supporting demographic. If you do the math on that, the majority of Gen Xers came of age during Reagan/Bush. And that sets their partisanship, just like the people who came of age during Kennedy and early Johnson have long been more liberals and more Dem than their older or younger siblings. In this sense, we are still paying the price for the Iran hostages.

2. I confess to getting really annoyed by terms like "Brahmin left" -- used by Joan Williams in that article. The first problem is that only people who even know what the "Brahmin left" means are people in the Brahmin left. I mean, let's look at the bio of the woman complaining that Dems don't know how to talk to "ordinary people" (her phrase):

Joan C. Williams is an American feminist legal scholar, the founding director at the Center for WorkLife Law, and a distinguished professor of law at UC Law San Francisco.

I mean, if not for feminist legal scholars, how would we ever know how to communicate with anyone? She's a fucking law professor. Obviously I have no issue with that, but it is annoying for the feminist legal scholar -- whose work is far more abstruse and remote from everyday concerns than, say, the lessons taught in a deal making class -- to call me out of touch. Her bio brags that she's the 11th most cited scholar in critical theory. Oh.

Second, there's a math problem that is so frequently overlooked. Working class people are bad at managing money. They buy lottery tickets; they are disproportionately smokers; a lot of alcohol consumption; especially among men, love affairs with certain types of vehicles that are expensive to drive and maintain.

For most of the 20th century, the people banging this drum were the "center right" establishment GOP folks. That was frustrating because a) they weren't wholly wrong; but b) they used this observation as a reason not to enact popular politics. We saw that at its most vulgar with Jason Chavetz' whining about how working class people have smart phones (gasp!), but in general the line was "look, they aren't struggling; they just drink too much" -- as if working people should be expected to be monks and not want to have a good time.

Now that the roles have shifted, it remains true that working people are frequently authors (in part) of their own financial struggles. To me, unlike the GOPers mentioned above, that's not a reason to oppose sympathetic policies. Even spendthrifts ought to have health insurance. Buying lottery tickets is a poor financial decision (as is sports betting, another disproportionately working class activity), but it shouldn't consign one to poverty.

But it becomes a problem when we play these recrimination games. It's not helpful to anyone for this critique to be front-and-center (I almost never mention it, nor do others that I see) but it's also not helpful to ignore it. Living paycheck to paycheck isn't a choice for everyone who does, but I would guess that more people choose that lifestyle than have it thrust upon them. Fine. Again, government should accommodate everyone. But what are we to do when we're told, "look at how we're struggling, do something to help us," and then fall into the cycle we've been through before? We can't say "stop buying lottery tickets," but we can't fix peoples' choices to consume their whole paycheck when they get it.
 
But this is a core issue with Trump and Trumpism. He walks a very fine line of criminality but there is usually plausible deniability or people willing to clam up on his behalf, etc., etc. Should we not investigate powerful people that may have broken the law? Of course we should. Powerful law-breakers are the most dangerous kind.

But then, Trump yells "political prosecution!" at any attempt to investigate. Robert Mueller was a lifelong Republican and was appointed special counsel by a Republican acting AG that was part of Trump's administration. That's not indicative of a political prosecution. That's indicative of a prosecution that involves a politician.

So where does that leave us? Should politicians be treated differently than non-politicians? Should we not investigate or prosecute politicians? That's a very bad outcome. Should we not investigate or prosecute politicians who cry political prosecution? That's not any better. Or should we investigate politicians that it appears may have broken the law and bring charges if and when the evidence supports a conviction? I imagine prosecutors would already be very wary of bringing a weak case against a politician because of that "political prosecution!" charge. But creating a political class that is immune from consequences (other than I guess not being reelected?) seems to me to be very, very dangerous.
He does walk a fine line. There's no doubt that his lies caused J6, but when he says "peacefully", even though he likely wanted violence, he's covering his ass legally.
 
Can you help me understand the following statement from that interview?

And message-wise, the wokeness, the technocracy, the globalization stuff — that too needs to go. Democrats need to replace it with an actual plan for reindustrialization. They should go to the “sacrifice states” in the Midwest and tell voters they actually have a plan for industrial policymaking. Now they don’t have a plan. Do you know what they tell voters? “Go get a college degree and move to the Sunbelt states.” That is not a plan; that is a death verdict.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the Dems had more than an "actual plan" for reindustrialization. They passed that plan into law, at least twice -- CHIPs and IRA. Moreover, in that sacrifice state of Michigan, the Dems created more industrial policymaking, including a major manufacturing plant and repealing right to work legislation. The Pubs ran against the former and ignored the latter and won. In Pennsylvania, the interstate collapsed and the government immediately responded and had the bridge rebuilt in record time. PA's union laws were strengthened, and the state Supreme Court picked off a couple of unpopular pro-business regs.

Meanwhile, I've never ever heard any Dem tell voters to "get a college degree and move south." I mean, what is he talking about there?
Why do the Democrats need a plan for this? It’s not like the Pubs had a plan. Tariffs were their plan? If people took that as a valid plan then the Dems should just make up plans too.
 
I never claim to be the perfect average man, but I’m way closer to a political moderate/swing voter than 99% of people who post on here, based on the mere fact that so few here vote for any Republicans - while I routinely split my ticket and vote based on the candidate and not simply the party.

I’ve always said I’m center-right and not dead center. But I do bring a perspective to the board that could be valuable to people if they would take some of my posts as a differing perspective that comes from a place of good faith.
So when was the last time you voted for a Democrat House, Senate or Presidential candidate? If you’ve never done that, you are not a split ticket voter.
 
Why do the Democrats need a plan for this? It’s not like the Pubs had a plan. Tariffs were their plan? If people took that as a valid plan then the Dems should just make up plans too.
In fairness, if he's talking about a long-term plan, his comment makes more sense. Paine said he was likely talking about the long-term.

And it's also true that Dems didn't have much of an industrial policy until Biden invested a lot more into it. Obama's presidency didn't really focus on that issue. It's an open question, of course, whether it would make a difference. To me Trumpism is almost fully explained by white identity politics mixed with Christian fundamentalism. I think the economic anxiety piece has always been mostly bullshit.

That said, Paine's argument is that people become more focused on their bigotry when they believe that they aren't being properly protected by the political system. It makes them angry and then they direct the anger outwards. I mean, maybe? He can't prove it; I can't prove him wrong. I think most of the anger is artificial, and the economic anxiety piece is backfilling.
 
He presented to the court the best evidence available at that time in representing his client. Ray will be vindicated in the long run. He has tons of support from most of the judges on the Fulton Superior Court and in the appellate courts.

I do not get involved in political/election lawsuits. In retrospect, that was a smart decision on my part.
Just to be clear what we're talking about here, these are the charges against your partner:

Ray Smith: Trump campaign attorney (12 charges)
  • One count: Violation of the Georgia RICO Act.
  • Three counts: Solicitation of violation of oath by public officer.
  • Two counts: False statements and writings.
  • One count: Conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer.
  • Two counts: Conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree.
  • Two counts: Conspiracy to commit false statements and writings.
  • One count: Conspiracy to commit filing false documents.

And this is the indictment, if anyone wants to read it: https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2023/08/CRIMINAL-INDICTMENT-Trump-Fulton-County-GA.pdf

So your law partner is alleged to have been one of the main people who presented false information about the 2020 election to the Georgia legislature, and then worked with the alternate electors to coordinate their knowing violation of the law by signing a separate electoral ballot, with the intent it be used by VP Pence to count Georgia's votes for Trump rather than Biden, notwithstanding that there was no reasonable question whatsoever that Biden had won Georgia.

You think you might be just a little bit misinformed about matters of politics?
 
On the NY point, I have no idea whether what you said is accurate (lawtig02 seems to think not), and even if it is accurate, whether it is meaningful. The facts of each case are unique, and as I'm sure you know, it's a lawyer's job to attempt to distinguish bad caselaw. That sounds a lot like what you are describing.
It's not accurate. Also, he's again talking in ways that litigators just don't. For instance, nothing was pointed out by the NY appellate court, because the court has not issued an opinion. It might have been pointed out at oral argument by one of the judges, but that's not what a litigator would say.
 
So when was the last time you voted for a Democrat House, Senate or Presidential candidate? If you’ve never done that, you are not a split ticket voter.
Not to mention that his claim to being an "average voter" because he splits his ticket is sort of laughable. The vast majority of voters in the US are not split ticket voters.
 
Just to be clear what we're talking about here, these are the charges against your partner:

Ray Smith: Trump campaign attorney (12 charges)
  • One count: Violation of the Georgia RICO Act.
  • Three counts: Solicitation of violation of oath by public officer.
  • Two counts: False statements and writings.
  • One count: Conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer.
  • Two counts: Conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree.
  • Two counts: Conspiracy to commit false statements and writings.
  • One count: Conspiracy to commit filing false documents.

And this is the indictment, if anyone wants to read it: https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2023/08/CRIMINAL-INDICTMENT-Trump-Fulton-County-GA.pdf

So your law partner is alleged to have been one of the main people who presented false information about the 2020 election to the Georgia legislature, and then worked with the alternate electors to coordinate their knowing violation of the law by signing a separate electoral ballot, with the intent it be used by VP Pence to count Georgia's votes for Trump rather than Biden, notwithstanding that there was no reasonable question whatsoever that Biden had won Georgia.

You think you might be just a little bit misinformed about matters of politics?
As you are aware, accusations or allegations in criminal indictments or civil complaints can sound very menacing and evil.
Just to be clear what we're talking about here, these are the charges against your partner:

Ray Smith: Trump campaign attorney (12 charges)
  • One count: Violation of the Georgia RICO Act.
  • Three counts: Solicitation of violation of oath by public officer.
  • Two counts: False statements and writings.
  • One count: Conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer.
  • Two counts: Conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree.
  • Two counts: Conspiracy to commit false statements and writings.
  • One count: Conspiracy to commit filing false documents.

And this is the indictment, if anyone wants to read it: https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2023/08/CRIMINAL-INDICTMENT-Trump-Fulton-County-GA.pdf

So your law partner is alleged to have been one of the main people who presented false information about the 2020 election to the Georgia legislature, and then worked with the alternate electors to coordinate their knowing violation of the law by signing a separate electoral ballot, with the intent it be used by VP Pence to count Georgia's votes for Trump rather than Biden, notwithstanding that there was no reasonable question whatsoever that Biden had won Georgia.

You think you might be just a little bit misinformed about matters of politics?
As you are well aware, accusations or allegations in a criminal indictment or a civil complaint can sound menacing and evil. You have to prove guilt and the DA is nowhere near proving its case against this defendant or the other defendants. Fani's office is about to be removed from the case and that will mean the end of this whole case.
 
It's not accurate. Also, he's again talking in ways that litigators just don't. For instance, nothing was pointed out by the NY appellate court, because the court has not issued an opinion. It might have been pointed out at oral argument by one of the judges, but that's not what a litigator would say.
distinction without a difference. I'm speaking casually on a message board not writing a legal brief. I listened to oral argument and I can assure you several of the appellate judges have series issues with the case below based upon their questioning at the hearing. Obviously, we'll wait for the written opinion.
 
As you are aware, accusations or allegations in criminal indictments or civil complaints can sound very menacing and evil.

As you are well aware, accusations or allegations in a criminal indictment or a civil complaint can sound menacing and evil. You have to prove guilt and the DA is nowhere near proving its case against this defendant or the other defendants. Fani's office is about to be removed from the case and that will mean the end of this whole case.
Did your partner work to have the alternate slate of electors sign a ballot that awarded Georgia's electoral votes to Donald Trump? That seems like a pretty straightforward yes or no question.
 
distinction without a difference. I'm speaking casually on a message board not writing a legal brief. I listened to oral argument and I can assure you several of the appellate judges have series issues with the case below based upon their questioning at the hearing. Obviously, we'll wait for the written opinion.
I'm not arguing with you any further about this. It's not whether it's on a message board or not, and this is only a minor point. The bigger problems are your complete mischaracterization of the NY proceeding; the fact that you apparently do not understand conflicts of interest at all; that you are unaware of basic issues about how different law enforcement agencies can and cannot act; that you interpret career choices as nefarious plots, etc.

And if you are a lawyer -- an obviously shitty one -- I don't care. The vast majority of your posts are demonstrably wrong.
 
Happy to share. I grew up in a small, rural town and grew up in a working class family. I know the term "working class" gets debated as to its true meaning, but I'd say that my parents were absolutely working class. My dad didn't finish high school and my mom has a GED. My dad was a construction worker and my mom was a part-time secretary. The highest annual income they ever earned together was ~$32,000 in mid-2000's dollars; I know this because I saw their Social Security income history when I was helping my mom file for my dad's survivor benefits after he died when I was in college. I grew up in a family where I had 62 first cousins, and I was ultimately the first of the cousins to attend or graduate from college. I say all of that to say, my entire family was largely non-college-educated and working class, and the overwhelming vast majority of my family still live in (and never once left) Robeson County. I grew up in the Southern Baptist church- the twice-on-Sundays, once-on-Wednesdays kind.

All of that to say, my Republican upbringing stemmed from the fact that I grew up in a largely lower-income, working class, rural, evangelical Christian environment. We supported the Republican Party because they were the party of God-fearing, Jesus-loving, rules-based law and order, support the troops, and family values. When you grow up in that kind of environment, you are naturally afraid of change, of diversity, and of people of different backgrounds and walks of life. It doesn't inherently make anyone coming from that environment a bad person; it just means that they are extraordinarily limited in the kind of worldly experiential opportunities that I believe have moderated me significantly.

I even maintained my Republican bonafides all throughout my time at UNC- I voted for John McCain and Mitt Romney while I was in college- but I definitely credit my experience at UNC with being the beginning of my ideological moderation. Yet, I still voted for Trump the first time, barely two years removed from graduating from college and in my mid-20's, because old Republican habits died hard for me, and because the opponent was Hillary Clinton, whom I'd grown up to believe was a horrible person and an even worse presidential candidate. I wouldn't say that I *liked* Trump- I voted for John Kasich in the primary and hoped that literally any one of the other Republican contenders would beat him- but once he was the Republican nominee I had very little hesitation at the time to vote for him.

The beginning of the end for me with regard to my support of Trump was two-fold: the poor way that he handled the Charlottesville tragedy in 2017 by refusing to condemn white supremacists and anti-semites, followed by the disastrous summit in Finland in 2018 where he stood next to Vladimir Putin in front of the entire world and said that the United States intelligence community was a bunch of liars and that he believed the Russians over our own.

I may be more conservative ideologically than many folks in the Democratic Party, but I have zero doubts or questions as to whether the Democratic Party- regardless of what ideological or policy differences I may have on occasion- demands honor, decency, and character from its leaders; or whether the Democratic Party stands for rules-based law and order; or whether the Democratic Party believes in America's role as a global defender of freedom or democracy; or whether the Democratic Party can be trusted with our most sensitive national secrets. That's why I vote Democratic now, and why I will continue to do so for as long as the Republican Party is no longer the conservative party that it claims to be.
Thank you for spending your time to write and post this, I really appreciate the background information. As someone who used to vote for the republican party, I'm curious how you viewed democrats back during that time. Did you feel like they did not represent your beliefs, or that they looked down on you, didn't care about your hardships (economically, for example), or other things? I ask because I think the democratic party is going to have to change in order to move forward stronger from this election - which is something that must happen - and there's none better to ask these questions to than folks who either used to vote for republicans or (sane ones) who still vote for republicans, imo.
 
Thank you for spending your time to write and post this, I really appreciate the background information. As someone who used to vote for the republican party, I'm curious how you viewed democrats back during that time. Did you feel like they did not represent your beliefs, or that they looked down on you, didn't care about your hardships (economically, for example), or other things? I ask because I think the democratic party is going to have to change in order to move forward stronger from this election - which is something that must happen - and there's none better to ask these questions to than folks who either used to vote for republicans or (sane ones) who still vote for republicans, imo.
Great questions! I think I viewed Democrats in about the exact same way as the current Republican Party still views them: fun to annoy and irritate and troll. I used to love brandishing my copy of Ann Coulter's "How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)." But then I grew up and realized that juvenile trolling and antagonism is not only absurd but completely counterproductive to building a better life and a better country for ALL of us Americans. I also began to take the time to try to actually understand policy issues instead of reflexively opposing anything and everything just because it "came from the other side." Once I began to understand policy issues, and once I began to recognize that the GOP hasn't been a governing party in years and has no desire to be one again, I started to recognize that even if I don't always align with the Democratic Party on everything ideologically or policy-wise, I very much align with the Democratic Party in its well-intentioned attempts to promote progress, equality, and a 'rising tide lifts all boats' mantra in governing.

In my personal view, the Democrats don't have *that* much ground to make up with the American electorate. They need to make tweaks rather than wholesale changes. They lost this 50/50 election by the most razor-thin of margins; it happens. Good parties with good policies sometimes lose elections. Instead of changing ideologically or policy-wise, I think that the Democrats need to create their own media apparatus that helps them to meet and talk to people exactly where they are, not in an ivory tower or in the Ivy League faculty lounge, but on the assembly lines and on the farms and in the automotive repair shops and in the factories and in the truck stops across America. Democrats have policy positions that are generally wildly popular when juxtaposed against Republican policy positions in blind polling. They need to figure out ways to meet people where they are, talk to them how they talk, and show them how and why the Democratic Party has a plan to provide them with healthcare, education, infrastructure renewal, child care support, and a social safety net helping hand when needed- and that the Republican Party absolutely does not.
 
I never claim to be the perfect average man, but I’m way closer to a political moderate/swing voter than 99% of people who post on here, based on the mere fact that so few here vote for any Republicans - while I routinely split my ticket and vote based on the candidate and not simply the party.

I’ve always said I’m center-right and not dead center. But I do bring a perspective to the board that could be valuable to people if they would take some of my posts as a differing perspective that comes from a place of good faith.
Perhaps you should start posting in good faith if you want your posts to be taken that way. There are people here who are FAR more vociferous than you and far more in the MAGA camp who i don't read as disengenuous and snark laden. Take it for what it's worth, but nearly everything you post reads that way based on context, timing, and circumstance.
 
Great questions! I think I viewed Democrats in about the exact same way as the current Republican Party still views them: fun to annoy and irritate and troll. I used to love brandishing my copy of Ann Coulter's "How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)." But then I grew up and realized that juvenile trolling and antagonism is not only absurd but completely counterproductive to building a better life and a better country for ALL of us Americans. I also began to take the time to try to actually understand policy issues instead of reflexively opposing anything and everything just because it "came from the other side." Once I began to understand policy issues, and once I began to recognize that the GOP hasn't been a governing party in years and has no desire to be one again, I started to recognize that even if I don't always align with the Democratic Party on everything ideologically or policy-wise, I very much align with the Democratic Party in its well-intentioned attempts to promote progress, equality, and a 'rising tide lifts all boats' mantra in governing.

In my personal view, the Democrats don't have *that* much ground to make up with the American electorate. They need to make tweaks rather than wholesale changes. They lost this 50/50 election by the most razor-thin of margins; it happens. Good parties with good policies sometimes lose elections. Instead of changing ideologically or policy-wise, I think that the Democrats need to create their own media apparatus that helps them to meet and talk to people exactly where they are, not in an ivory tower or in the Ivy League faculty lounge, but on the assembly lines and on the farms and in the automotive repair shops and in the factories and in the truck stops across America. Democrats have policy positions that are generally wildly popular when juxtaposed against Republican policy positions in blind polling. They need to figure out ways to meet people where they are, talk to them how they talk, and show them how and why the Democratic Party has a plan to provide them with healthcare, education, infrastructure renewal, child care support, and a social safety net helping hand when needed- and that the Republican Party absolutely does not.
Thank you so much for writing this out. I have enjoyed reading it, and I hope that we can gain from folks' experiences similar to yourself. I do admit that I am more negative than you regarding going forward. I feel like there needs to be significant change in the party's direction along with messaging, and overall persona - losing like this (all three) to a party as fucking insane, hateful, selfish as the current maga party is an indication, imo.
 
In fairness, if he's talking about a long-term plan, his comment makes more sense. Paine said he was likely talking about the long-term.

And it's also true that Dems didn't have much of an industrial policy until Biden invested a lot more into it. Obama's presidency didn't really focus on that issue. It's an open question, of course, whether it would make a difference. To me Trumpism is almost fully explained by white identity politics mixed with Christian fundamentalism. I think the economic anxiety piece has always been mostly bullshit.

That said, Paine's argument is that people become more focused on their bigotry when they believe that they aren't being properly protected by the political system. It makes them angry and then they direct the anger outwards. I mean, maybe? He can't prove it; I can't prove him wrong. I think most of the anger is artificial, and the economic anxiety piece is backfilling.
Ah. Yes, that is different if he's talking long-term plans.
 
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