Where do we go from here?

  • Thread starter Thread starter rodoheel
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 532
  • Views: 7K
  • Politics 
If we look back over the last three cycles from the rise of Trump until today, you can see a complete repudiation of both the country club and neocon conservatives that had dominated the GOP since Watergate. Sure, plenty of these groups have and will continue to support Rs due to many reasons both cultural and $$$ but they have largely been co-opted by MAGA as of 2024, with evangelicals along for the ride due to their own policy goals. The Bush's and Cheney's of the world are about as welcome in the modern GOP as Harris and Biden. How did Trump do this? He created a movement that shook up the existing coalition and brought in new blood to the party. Sure, some voters were lost, but many more (or at least enough in the right places) were added to make up for it.

Meanwhile, the dems have been losing the working class. First the WWC, and now minorities as well. You can say that it was a reaction to running a Black man or a woman (x2), but Obama and Biden both won in 2012 and 2020 with enough of those voters in key states. Clearly there are enough of those voters that are persuadable for the right candidate even during the rise of Trump's movement. On balance, however, these voters are buying more of what the newly MAGA GOP is selling than they are from the dems. Some are now fully MAGA but the secret to future dem success is winning back those that are not.

In my view, Biden was an exception in 2020 due to COVID and as an extension of Obama's popularity. Honestly, without COVID, I think Trump would have beaten Biden. Now I don't expect a second Obama to appear out of the ether, but clearly the dems need to put forward a candidate (and downballot candidates in alignment with them) with broader mass appeal to these voters.

Dems should focus on creating a *movement*, not just triangulate to specific policy goals. In my view this *doesn't* mean running as far left as Sanders, but he was on the right track. As others have discussed, I think Bernie would have gotten killed in the general - this country is too conservative for his policies today. But how many Obama -> Trump or Sanders -> Trump voters are out there? Enough to chase and enough to win an election, even if not going fully leftist. Charisma, confidence, and humor from a leader of a new movement will contrast, combat, and beat the fear, isolationism, and grievance of the MAGA movement. Persuadable voters have shown that they could give a rip about detailed policy plans and it's about making them feel that they are a part of something.

The challenge is finding someone who can actually inspire and create this. Politics is now so personality driven these days that a new movement is the only way to win voters for more than 1 or 2 cycles at a time. Running a bland, establishment dem, even if capable of winning a single election, won't shift the paradigm enough to stop the current bleeding in the long run.

These are just my initial thoughts. Plenty of time to think this through and debate as a party, but we must be ready and lay the groundwork today to regain power and stop this madness when the time is again right.
 
Doesn’t the fact that the problem is more disappearing Democratic voters than people flipping to Republicans indicate that leaning more into understanding the Republican base isn’t the solution ?
I think we have a big problem that requires way more than one solution. Apathy certainly needs to be addressed but understanding why people flip from D to someone as bad as Trump needs to be examined a lot. It concerns me more that so many who voted Biden 4 years ago and are not dyed in the wool MAGA types would flip to someone as vile as Trump.
 
Trump has a Cult and is a Hollywood D-lister. He has grievances. His cult has grievances. Reagan's WH banned Trump from visits. Trump has very few traditional conservative views and was an HRC supporting Democrat in NYC. He tested the waters by jabbing Obama about Obama's birth certificate. Obama roasted Trump at the WH Correspondents dinner. While Trump ran in 2015 largely as a branding exercise, he used lockeroom.

While OG conservatism of the Buckley era focused on education, discipline, sound financial principles, free trade, world order, security, law & order, Trump shared as many political leanings with Bernie as Reagan. Trump was a spoiled brat who was another snotty draft dodger and self-centered. Daddy provide for him and he never really grew up emotionally. Trump wanted to be an elitist, and often saw himself.

When unions didn't protect working class jobs, even though lost jobs were more to automation than trade overseas, working class voters were looking for a populist. Bernie was their first pick. Trump recognized the opportunity to be a carpetbagger and share grievance against free trade, even if both Trump and Midwestern WC both misunderstood.

Southern whites were a piece of cake for Trump. Share grievances about blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, and women who ran companies that make sandwiches rather than making them at home.

When Trump was on trial, his body language said "grievance" at all times. Grievance + pretend feats of strength. The Circus is back in town and MAGA in full are visiting the carnies again.
 
Trump has consistently been against free trade for decades. That’s one of his few political values that have been consistent across time.
 
Bernie can register as a Democrat to run for President the same way I registered as a Republican to vote in the Republican primary in Ohio in 2016. Bernie is not and never has been a dues-paying member of the Democratic Party. They are never and were never going to nominate him.
More importantly, he's not done a damned thing to grow the party. He just wants to cut in line and use it. Maybe he would be good. He still can't get elected in this political climate. If Hillary had won in 2016, we might have been at a point where that changed. She didn't and it hasn't.
 
Last edited:
Trump has consistently been against free trade for decades. That’s one of his few political values that have been consistent across time.
Yes, and it’s amusing that the guy who is a huge opponent of free trade just won an election railing against higher consumer prices. In MAGA land they believe it’s possible to both return tons of manufacturing jobs to the country AND keep everything at Wal-Mart the same price.
 
Yeah, I mean I may have grown up in the same town. And the people you describe no doubt exist and are common. I could go on about my experiences for ages and I will after I get my kids to bed and have a few nightcaps. But when you win a popular vote by 5 million, win every blue wall state, you're not just pulling from the raging rednecks. We've always known he is the pied piper of white trash, but his base is increasing into more normal seeming people. It's almost like a stage of Marxism is happening, but the white working class isn't just mad at the robber barons, they're fucking mad at everyone who isn't sweating the rent every month. And by God all we do is flame them about their plight and get them even more mad. Nobody is even trying to relate to them. The most we do to try and relate to them is pick an everyman VP whose net worth is only $300K. It's like the dems brushed them off and just said we don't need you, now go on about your business, losers. And it's not gonna work any more. There has to be a plan to reach the reasonable ones in there that might actually have a good reason to not like the libs so much and turn some of them around. We're fucking losing.

You do realize that four years ago 82 million Americans voted for a democrat, right?
 
Yeah before you paint 75 million Trump voters with that broad of a brush you might wanna consider the fact that Joe Biden got 81 million votes 4 years ago and Kamala is sitting at 67 or so now. That means many millions of those Trump voters this year weren't motivated by "racial, socioeconomic, gender-based hate and rage" just a few years ago. And this is exactly what I've been saying over and over here. If you call them all idiots, you can be damn sure none of them come back. But nobody wants to ask what the hell did we do wrong to lose 14 million voters either to apathy or to a makeup wearing phony? Some of you really need to consider the possibility that you're blinded by the same visceral vitriol that many of the people you criticize on the other side are. Common sense dictates that there is a way to get a lot of these people back but most of this board would rather throw the baby out with the bathwater than admit there's a massive disconnect going on here.
Oh I admit I am. I wish the country would split apart. I'm not the one to come to with solutions of how to reach trump voters

But I also think the solution to reach those 14 million is found with younger voters like previously mentioned. They don't have the wounds of years and decades of dealing with right wing hatred

But reaching them online and not in door knocks is key. And over the next two years tap in to how Trump isn't really helping them

Boil the messaging into a couple of words and not long explanations
 
Last edited:
Just fwiw, only about a sixth of the middle class in the US is rural. When you say it disappeared, you were right but it was more completely than just for one party. I have no idea how that 17% split but it's not a large segment for any party.
A little more on this topic. That figure represents about 8% of the nation. Here's a good article on the "decline" of the middle class that has dropped from 61 to 51% of the population. It's worthy of note that the main reason is they moved to the upper class.

 
Not sure how you can have the opinions that you’ve posted numerous times today and not think Sanders would’ve beaten Trump in 2016.
I sincerely doubt that Sanders would have beaten Trump in 2016 because I don’t think “the middle” in America would turn out for a progressive in the numbers needed to win.

But, in hindsight, I do wish Dems had run Bernie in 2016 as either Bernie would have won and prevented Trump from taking office or have lost and progressives would have learned that left-center liberalism is as far as America is willing to go.
 
Go back to 2000. If the Supreme Court hadn’t put its finger on the scale to install George W Bush none of this shit happens. But “what ifs” are a fool’s errand.
 
Go back to 2000. If the Supreme Court hadn’t put its finger on the scale to install George W Bush none of this shit happens. But “what ifs” are a fool’s errand.
Still think that was a lot more about the earlier voter purge than either the SCOTUS or any hanging chads/ ballot count issues.
 
At this point it's pretty clear in my mind that I live in a bubble and that this board is a super-bubble. As a group we are completely out of touch with the average American. I'm as guilty as anyone of this (actually moreso) but the condescension to conservatives isn't working. Liberals as a group have what I would call a "bad case of better than". This con man is likely going to win the popular vote and unfortunately just proclaiming that every single person that voted for him is an idiot is not a practical way of looking at it.

How good is the economy really? It's damn good if you have an IRA and a good job. It sucks if you live in a small town, have the same job you always had, and the extra $300 you had left over every month after paying all your monthly bills is now eaten up by the price of groceries. We're just out of touch. Not all the people who cast these votes are bad people but a lot of them are straight up "fuck you" votes. We all need to step back and take a look at ourselves. When I see a Trumper struggling my thought has typically been "he's struggling because he's not that bright to begin with and wants someone to blame other than himself for his predicament." And unfortunately many of us project that kind of arrogance which makes a lot of people hate us even more than we hate Trump.

I don't have time to write a novel right now. Maybe tonight when I'm drinking this off I'll come back and vent. But I'm pretty humbled by this and those are my initial thoughts.
Interesting post.

I find it interesting that many conservatives are the bootstrap types. They don't want or need to government. It's an interesting dynamic for a person who doesn't need help to never make the choice to move away from the dead end small town to give themselves more opportunities. Then they blame the government for their situation.

How can one not need the government and blame the government at the same time?
 
I just can't get over what people see in Trump. It's less about why she lost, but how could he win.

A convicted felon, serial sexual harrasser, insurrectionist/ traitor, multiple bankruptcies, multiple marriages w/ infidelity, narcissitic sociopath, said to be incompotent/ dangerous/ unfit by a majority of his previous cabinet.


There is not one redeeming quality about the man or even his presidency with the exception that there is a perception that "I" was better off during his term than Biden's. It is a reality I can't understand. There is no amount of debate about what went wrong for Democrats that will ever make sense or provide a path forward for them. As someone said on another thread, we'll have to wait until it all collaspses and have to pickup the pieces New Deal style again.
 
You have the causality wrong. Stop blaming the doctors when the inmates are running the asylum. Look at the UK. How did Brexit work out for them?

And I'm tried of this bullshit about how we are always supposed to be in touch with them. How about they get in touch with us? The relationship between liberals and conservatives is like intimate partner violence. They go on a rampage against us, and then we're supposed to go back and ask them how we can do better for them?

I have never thought that about a Trumper who is struggling. I have never failed to reach out and help. Those days are over.

Arrogance is people who don't know shit pretending that they do. The arrogance comes from them.
Maybe that has elements of arrogance. But I see lots of ignorance and acceptance. So many just accept what they are told as fact. And this goes so far beyond politics.

I mean look around, we have real flat earthers, real cult members, anti vaxers, anti science, Qanon, conspiracy believers, etc.

This is why scamming is a billion dollar industry.

I consider myself very lucky and fortunate as I'm very average intelligence. I've had good help and guidance over the years and I'm skeptical enough to keep me out of the grasp of the charlatans who peddle the bullshit.
 
I just can't get over what people see in Trump. It's less about why she lost, but how could he win.

A convicted felon, serial sexual harrasser, insurrectionist/ traitor, multiple bankruptcies, multiple marriages w/ infidelity, narcissitic sociopath, said to be incompotent/ dangerous/ unfit by a majority of his previous cabinet.


There is not one redeeming quality about the man or even his presidency with the exception that there is a perception that "I" was better off during his term than Biden's. It is a reality I can't understand. There is no amount of debate about what went wrong for Democrats that will ever make sense or provide a path forward for them. As someone said on another thread, we'll have to wait until it all collaspses and have to pickup the pieces New Deal style again.
Completely agree.

Same here, I didn't see Kamala as perfect, but he was/is so damn bad.
 
Back
Top