- Messages
- 3,417
I believe he said he is an MD
Where do we go from here?
- Thread starter rodoheel
- Start date
- Replies: 995
- Views: 25K
- Politics
Bernie would have lost in Walter Mondale numbers.
Bernie Would Have Won
The Democratic smothering of the Bernie coalition reaped its reward today, writes Krystal Ball.open.substack.com
- Messages
- 2,672
You are literally posting on a thread that is for us to "start thinking about what the fuck just happened" and not "pretending that 75 million people are all just raging foaming at the mouth lunatics." This is from the second part of my initial two-part post starting the thread:
"Dems have no path forward unless they can rebuild their relationship with working-class populations. Messaging has to be crafted to appeal to them. We have to meet them where they are. They want messaging that appeals to them emotionally, not rationally. Not just economic messaging, but cultural messaging. Too many of them were convinced by the Pied Pipers of Trump, Fox News, et al that liberals hate them and look down on them, and in our frustration about them fleeing to Trump we made that easy to believe. And we can't just blame racism or culture-war grievances, because working-class minorities fled to Trump too. How do we message to them in a way that is coherent without alienating the more progressive parts of the liberal coalition? Not a dilemma I'd want to solve."
Stop lecturing us like you're the only person here who knows a Republican and/or understands that Democrats have lost working class voters and need to appeal to them better. It is no more productive to say that the only reason working class people vote for Trump is that college-educated liberals talk down to them than it is to say that the only reason people vote for Trump is that they're "raging foaming at the mouth lunatics." Of course 75 million people aren't raging foaming at the mouth lunatics. But placing the lion's share of the blame for Trump's success on the idea that liberals refuse to talk to or try to understand Trump voters is asinine. For Christ's sake, between 2016 and now we must have had 15,000 versions of the New York Times article "I met with Trump voters in a small-town diner to talk with them and try to understand them better." Are Fox News and Tucker Carlson doing pieces like that to try to help their viewers understand where liberals and progressives are coming from? Hell no; it's a lot easier to just paint us all as trans commie soy boys who want to impose mandatory sensitivity training for anyone who doesn't live within five minutes of a Starbucks.
We definitely have a big problem in this country with voters from different backgrounds not knowing or understanding each other, but that's a problem that cuts across all demographics in all directions. I'm fairly confident that liberals have done more to try to understand MAGA voters than the other way around, even if most of us still haven't done enough.
- Messages
- 2,672
Breaking news: according to progressives, a more progressive candidate would have apparently won every single election a Democrat ever lost.Bernie Would Have Won
The Democratic smothering of the Bernie coalition reaped its reward today, writes Krystal Ball.
Agreed here, but a caveat, messaging and finger-pointing needs to be improved even IF the economy does tank quickly enough. Repubs will lie regarding economy and/or blame dems. (they'll also lie about crime, or dem stone-walling regarding immigration reform, healthcare reform, etc).
- Messages
- 1,896
God bless Captain Vere!
- Messages
- 1,947
Won’t get into everything. Will just touch upon a few things.
We all have seen the things Trump has done and said. That’s all there for you to see and hear. You go ahead and spin why his rhetoric hasn’t been divisive, mean-spirited, violent, and dishonest.
When he won in 2016, Hillary conceded. I don’t recall her or Dems saying the election was stolen or trying to talk a Secretary of State into “finding” just enough votes to win a state or organizing a rally to attempt to stop the certification of votes or file multiple frivolous lawsuits challenging vote counts. The Russian interference did not mean the election was not legit; it was a national security concern. The Mueller report has information regarding the Trump campaign’s interactions with Russians Messi g up to the election. You can read it.
Jussie Smollett? Sorry, that wasn’t something Dems by and large were rallying around. He made a false claim that was reported. When it was first reported it wasn’t like most Dems were making a big deal out of it. The story really got “big” when it became obvious it was a false claim. Dems didn’t dispute that it was as false claim. It was right wingers who wanted to make a big deal about the whole thing when Dems were like, “Okay, that piece of shit lied. Who the fuck is that guy anyway and why did his claim become a story in the first place?”
Re: illegals crossing the border who was ready to sign a border bill to beef up border security? And who told republicans in Congress not to let it pass because it may look good for Biden and would take away a talking point for that person’s campaign. Tell me the specifics of Trump’s border policy vs. that of Biden. By the way do you know how border crossings/encounters are assessed?
And the folks who crossed the border and were flown to cities weren’t “illegals.” They were asylum seekers, which means they did not cross illegally.
And it’s not like it’s just Dems that have called Trump out for his shenanigans. Many of the people who have worked closest with him have, calling him a a threat to national security and incompetent. I’m sure you’ll counter that by saying that they had an axe to grind or they were incompetent or whatever. But, hypothetically, if that were the case, what it does it say about Trump if he surrounded himself with so many of those people?
I don’t have your initial post that I responded to right in front of me, so I can’t remember every detail of your post that could warrant a response. Not that it matters anyway. I’m sure typing this was just a fool’s errand.
Last edited:
They'll figure a way, and if Rogan and Elon and everyone else repeat the lie enough sheeple will believe it. Of course the "anybody but the incumbent" factor will help regardless of the lies... so the only hope is that people truly do just vote with their pocket-book. But in that case we're kinda assholes for hoping poor and middle-class feel pain.
- Messages
- 2,672
What was the evidence attached to the claim that Sanders would have won this year? The idea that Joe Rogan endorsed him before so he would have enforced him this time and that would have been the difference?
No one has any evidence because what we're discussing is a counterfactual. The perfect debate because everyone is convinced they're right and no one can prove otherwise. I have no idea whether Bernie would have won this election in the alternate universe where he was the candidate, and anyone who says they do is a fool or has an agenda to push.
What I do know is that's is BS for Bernie, in the space of one day, to go from tweeting this:
"We know why Trump should NOT be president. Here’s why Kamala should be. She wants to:- Raise the min wage to $15 per hour- Cancel all medical debt- Help working parents by expanding the child tax credit- Expand Medicare to cover home health care, vision & hearing."
To tweeting a two-page screed where he accuses Democrats of abandoning the working class and failing to pass the progressive agenda with not one word to say about Trump or Republicans having obstructed and demonized that agenda at every turn.
I want progressives in the leftist coalition. I don't think liberals can win without leftists, and vice versa. But apparently progressives think they can win without leftists. Because Sanders and other prominent leftists have reacted to this devastating loss by immediately taking out the knives they had clearly been sharpening behind their backs for months or years. It may be true that liberals need to grow a spine and risk alienating wealthy donors by leaning in harder on overtly populist policies, but it's also true that leftists need to be realistic about where the overall electorate is on certain issues (like Gaza and Medicare for all) and stop acting like every leftist policy preference is so universally popular that adopting it is the easy button to victory.
"Let it burn" is a feeling we have, but obviously a strategy people are pondering. But the Dems need to do something to capitalize on the conflagration. They need to make bold, loud predictions now that will stand time (and manipulation & spin) so they can hold the Repub's feet to the fire. Dems need to be able to says "we told you so", or else the gullible, tribal, confirmation-biased, misinformed people won't know who to blame.
It seems we're in a world of incumbents always losing, but if Trump's impact takes 7 yrs to finally be painful then it could be Dems as the incumbents in 7 yrs being blamed.
^That's my feelings regarding OP's #3
It seems we're in a world of incumbents always losing, but if Trump's impact takes 7 yrs to finally be painful then it could be Dems as the incumbents in 7 yrs being blamed.
^That's my feelings regarding OP's #3
- Messages
- 3,936
Bernie is the backup QB who would lead his team to the state championship/national championship/Super Bowl win if only the coach would put him in.
You don’t understand the visceral hatred of the word “socialist.”
The entire campaign - Bernie: “I’m a Democratic Socialist.” The opposition: “Even he says he’s a socialist.”
He’s a dead man walking as a general election candidate.
- Messages
- 3,417
Bernie Sanders was never ever never ever ever going to be the Democratic Presidential nominee because he is not a Democrat. Democrats nominate Democrats. Republicans nominate Republicans. That’s what political parties do. Bernie is an independent. If he wants to run for President as an Independent he should feel free to do so. But the Democrats will never nominate someone who isn’t a Democrat to be their Presidential nominee.
Is Bernie a Democrat in the US Senate?
No. He’s an Independent.
If he wants to run for the Democratic nomination for a political office, he needs to be a Democrat.
- Messages
- 3,417
Bernie can register as a Democrat to run for President the same way I registered as a Republican to vote in the Republican primary in Ohio in 2016. Bernie is not and never has been a dues-paying member of the Democratic Party. They are never and were never going to nominate him.
- Messages
- 1,972
I dont hate Donald Trump for any of those reasons. I hated Donald Trump the minute he put himself into politics. He is an absolutely detestable human with no redeeming qualities so far as I can tell. I dont base that determination on any reporting or any filters. I base it on what I see and hear from the man himself. I see him insult and mock the disabled. I see him cheat on every version of a family he's ever had. I see him denigrate group after group and fan flames of anger and hatred. I see him flaunt the rule of law and openly state that he's above it completely. None of that is spin or propaganda. Thats all Trump himself.
And i do not have a solitary thing in common with anyone who cant see those things about Donald Trump.
- Messages
- 321
I mean you make some decent points and we're definitely doing some things very wrong but you're also ignoring a lot of stuff here. "Stand back and stand by", wearing proud boy colors, and having a blatantly racist comedian open your rally doesn't specifically say white supremacists are "good" people, but it says you're "with" them. I never believed the border was secure and frankly I don't care, but I know most of you will blame dems when an apple costs $5 because we donlt have anyone to pick them. What I do believe - I believe Trump slept with a porn star while his wife was pregnant. I believe Trump said it's OK to grab women by the pussy and meant it. I believe he has abolutely zero religious inclination whatsover but sells autographed Bibles for profit. I believe he's the only person I've ever seen run multiple casinos into bankruptcy and that he wouldn't have been shit as a businessman without being born on third base. I believe he's the only politician in history that has had multiple groups of people FROM HIS OWN PARTY start coalitions to prevent him from getting elected. I believe 80% of his cabinet and nearly everyone he works with in any capacity quits mid-job and tells the truth about him after while remaining Republican. I believe he's a convicted felon and deserves to be because he broke the law, even if his inflamatory and unnecessary bravado also played a role in his getting charged. So if the media fabricated or exaggerated a few things, it doesn't change my opinion of him. He's a truly loathesome indvidual and just a horrible person. That's not a media creation and if you think he's even a remotely decent person you're just gullible as can be.
But I don't believe you lose an election this badly to this level of creep without missing a lot of things yourself and making major, major errors. And after this curb stomping I don't believe that every person who voted for him is a grand wizard either. What does this demographic find so loathesome about the dems that they would vote for this guy over us? We're not going to win the presidency back by just calling them idiots, especially if we don't get the benefit of a mishandled pandemic or a historic financial meltdown like W delivered to us on a silver platter.
I've also thought about my own redneck town upbringing and where I might be if I wasn't blessed with an upper middle class family and the brains to get into a good school where I changed a lot of the ideas I had coming in. You can say these people are dogshit humans and maybe a lot of them are, but unless you've lived in these places you don't understand what they are born into. Libs will make excuses all day for a minority born in a high rise but a white man born into racism, hate and borderline poverty is supposed to just see the light. That's not reality.
So yeah we've made a lot of mistakes, but if you think I was brainwashed into thinking Donald Trump is a vile piece of shit, bless your'e heart. We don't need to reach all 75 million of the people that voted for him. Just five or ten is probably enough, and we can do that, but not by calling the whole lot of them morons. But I think you're probably like a human Wyoming. Probably don't need to be focusing too much on reaching you.
- Messages
- 2,672
I didn't say that Bernie would have lost Mondale style. Don't attribute other peoples' posts to me. I said anybody who thinks they know what would have happened is a fool. I read the article you linked. It's all argument and grievance and conjecture, not anything approaching evidence. Because no one can have evidence either way. It's why counterfactuals are pointless and ultimately lazy arguments - they're impossible to realistically test and disprove.
The quote about sharpening knives is because of the fact that it took less than 24 hours for Bernie, among others, to go from endorsing the Dem nominee to openly and unequivocally calling Dems traitors to the working class. That was not the tone or content of a post from someone who seems to have any intention of working with Dems moving forward. Anyone who thinks quotes like that can't and won't be spun to openly court disaffected progressives to the conservative coalition is fooling themselves. And it's especially dumb to blame the election on Dems not pushing economic policies that would help the working class when working class voters just fled to a candidate who not only is not offering any economic policies that would help the working class, but openly supported policies that would hurt the working class and help the rich.
Progressives love to accuse the Dems of preferring Republicans to progressives because we're all part of the same neoliberal order or whatever. Is that honestly what you want to accuse us of? That we'd prefer Trump to Sanders? Is that the sentiment you think is being expressed here? Why is it so hard for progressives to acknowledge that the Democratic Party is full of people who generally agree with progressive policy proposals, but disagree about strategy and approach, the better off we'll all be. From some of the things progressives say I honestly get the feeling you prefer to see Dems as enemies rather than allies.