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  • Thread starter Thread starter rodoheel
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Never any evidence attached to these claims. If you think Mondale is Sanders you’re delusional. It’s 2024.
What was the evidence attached to the claim that Sanders would have won this year? The idea that Joe Rogan endorsed him before so he would have enforced him this time and that would have been the difference?

No one has any evidence because what we're discussing is a counterfactual. The perfect debate because everyone is convinced they're right and no one can prove otherwise. I have no idea whether Bernie would have won this election in the alternate universe where he was the candidate, and anyone who says they do is a fool or has an agenda to push.

What I do know is that's is BS for Bernie, in the space of one day, to go from tweeting this:

"We know why Trump should NOT be president. Here’s why Kamala should be. She wants to:- Raise the min wage to $15 per hour- Cancel all medical debt- Help working parents by expanding the child tax credit- Expand Medicare to cover home health care, vision & hearing."

To tweeting a two-page screed where he accuses Democrats of abandoning the working class and failing to pass the progressive agenda with not one word to say about Trump or Republicans having obstructed and demonized that agenda at every turn.

I want progressives in the leftist coalition. I don't think liberals can win without leftists, and vice versa. But apparently progressives think they can win without leftists. Because Sanders and other prominent leftists have reacted to this devastating loss by immediately taking out the knives they had clearly been sharpening behind their backs for months or years. It may be true that liberals need to grow a spine and risk alienating wealthy donors by leaning in harder on overtly populist policies, but it's also true that leftists need to be realistic about where the overall electorate is on certain issues (like Gaza and Medicare for all) and stop acting like every leftist policy preference is so universally popular that adopting it is the easy button to victory.
 
"Let it burn" is a feeling we have, but obviously a strategy people are pondering. But the Dems need to do something to capitalize on the conflagration. They need to make bold, loud predictions now that will stand time (and manipulation & spin) so they can hold the Repub's feet to the fire. Dems need to be able to says "we told you so", or else the gullible, tribal, confirmation-biased, misinformed people won't know who to blame.

It seems we're in a world of incumbents always losing, but if Trump's impact takes 7 yrs to finally be painful then it could be Dems as the incumbents in 7 yrs being blamed.

^That's my feelings regarding OP's #3
 
They aren’t the middle. They are Trump’s base. And so long as understanding them and winning them back remains at the center of Democratic discussion there will be parts of the base that feel betrayed, especially when the other side is giddy to govern in a nakedly partisan manner.

Crafting policy to appeal to / help 51% of the population doesn’t win elections right now.
I really don’t know what point you’re trying to make.
 
Never any evidence attached to these claims. If you think Mondale is Sanders you’re delusional. It’s 2024.
You don’t understand the visceral hatred of the word “socialist.”

The entire campaign - Bernie: “I’m a Democratic Socialist.” The opposition: “Even he says he’s a socialist.”

He’s a dead man walking as a general election candidate.
 
What was the evidence attached to the claim that Sanders would have won this year? The idea that Joe Rogan endorsed him before so he would have enforced him this time and that would have been the difference?

No one has any evidence because what we're discussing is a counterfactual. The perfect debate because everyone is convinced they're right and no one can prove otherwise. I have no idea whether Bernie would have won this election in the alternate universe where he was the candidate, and anyone who says they do is a fool or has an agenda to push.

What I do know is that's is BS for Bernie, in the space of one day, to go from tweeting this:

"We know why Trump should NOT be president. Here’s why Kamala should be. She wants to:- Raise the min wage to $15 per hour- Cancel all medical debt- Help working parents by expanding the child tax credit- Expand Medicare to cover home health care, vision & hearing."

To tweeting a two-page screed where he accuses Democrats of abandoning the working class and failing to pass the progressive agenda with not one word to say about Trump or Republicans having obstructed and demonized that agenda at every turn.

I want progressives in the leftist coalition. I don't think liberals can win without leftists, and vice versa. But apparently progressives think they can win without leftists. Because Sanders and other prominent leftists have reacted to this devastating loss by immediately taking out the knives they had clearly been sharpening behind their backs for months or years. It may be true that liberals need to grow a spine and risk alienating wealthy donors by leaning in harder on overtly populist policies, but it's also true that leftists need to be realistic about where the overall electorate is on certain issues (like Gaza and Medicare for all) and stop acting like every leftist policy preference is so universally popular that adopting it is the easy button to victory.
Your characterization of people on the left sharpening knives behind their backs is juvenile. Everyone left of center wanted to win this election. Everyone is mad that we didn’t. Bernie Sanders has a right to blame whoever the hell he wants. He’s taken enough false blame for the outcome of 2016. There is blame being cast at everyone in the party right now.

If you’ve read any of my other posts today, my argument about why I think Bernie would’ve won is implicit. I’ve attached multiple articles that have laid out the case in more detail.

The point about Sanders losing Mondale style sounds like something Chris Matthew spewed out in 2015 and every MSNBC viewer ran with it.

What you’re saying is equivalent to Republicans not wanting Democrats to talk about gun control after a school shooting.
 
You don’t understand the visceral hatred of the word “socialist.”

The entire campaign - Bernie: “I’m a Democratic Socialist.” The opposition: “Even he says he’s a socialist.”

He’s a dead man walking as a general election candidate.
They say that about every fucking Democrat that runs. They called Kamala Harris a Marxist.

I don’t think Sanders was winning the Cuban vote whether he said he’s a socialist or not.
 
Bernie is the backup QB who would lead his team to the state championship/national championship/Super Bowl win if only the coach would put him in.
Not sure how you can have the opinions that you’ve posted numerous times today and not think Sanders would’ve beaten Trump in 2016.
 
Bernie Sanders was never ever never ever ever going to be the Democratic Presidential nominee because he is not a Democrat. Democrats nominate Democrats. Republicans nominate Republicans. That’s what political parties do. Bernie is an independent. If he wants to run for President as an Independent he should feel free to do so. But the Democrats will never nominate someone who isn’t a Democrat to be their Presidential nominee.
 
Bernie Sanders was never ever never ever ever going to be the Democratic Presidential nominee because he is not a Democrat. Democrats nominate Democrats. Republicans nominate Republicans. That’s what political parties do. Bernie is an independent. If he wants to run for President as an Independent he should feel free to do so. But the Democrats will never nominate someone who isn’t a Democrat to be their Presidential nominee.
He registered as a Democrat to run in the primary. Republicans just elected a man, for the second time, who wasn’t a Republican until fairly recently.

Reagan was famously a Democrat before his corporate turn.

Bernie’s policies represent the core of the Democratic Party’s ethos more than any Democratic candidate since Harry Truman.
 
He registered as a Democrat to run in the primary. Republicans just elected a man, for the second time, who wasn’t a Republican until fairly recently.

Reagan was famously a Democrat before his corporate turn.

Bernie’s policies represent the core of the Democratic Party’s ethos more than any Democratic candidate since Harry Truman.
Is Bernie a Democrat in the US Senate?

No. He’s an Independent.

If he wants to run for the Democratic nomination for a political office, he needs to be a Democrat.
 
Publicly focusing on the wants and needs of the other party's base can make your party's base feel abandoned, especially when Republicans are openly governing only for their base. Believing that policy proposals that cover a large enough portion of the electorate is the path to victory is Third Way thinking, and I don't think that works in a world where a guy just won with a concept of a plan.
Like I said: no one is suggesting that the Democratic Party suddenly become the party that aligns with every position white working class voters have.

This conversation has been focused on economic discussions. When I talk about appealing to the WWC, I’m talking about populist economics that benefit working class voters of all races.

The Democratic Party’s base benefits from the same economic policies that would be deployed to appeal to the WWC.
 
Is Bernie a Democrat in the US Senate?

No. He’s an Independent.

If he wants to run for the Democratic nomination for a political office, he needs to be a Democrat.
Vermont voters elect him in the state’s Democratic primary every cycle and then he runs as an independent in the general.

Seems weird to have a problem with it when the Democratic Party of Vermont doesn’t.
 
He registered as a Democrat to run in the primary. Republicans just elected a man, for the second time, who wasn’t a Republican until fairly recently.

Reagan was famously a Democrat before his corporate turn.

Bernie’s policies represent the core of the Democratic Party’s ethos more than any Democratic candidate since Harry Truman.
Bernie can register as a Democrat to run for President the same way I registered as a Republican to vote in the Republican primary in Ohio in 2016. Bernie is not and never has been a dues-paying member of the Democratic Party. They are never and were never going to nominate him.
 
You, and so many others, have been manipulated into believing so many things that are simply not true by a party, aided and abetted by the liberal media, who desperately wanted to stay in power. After 4 more years of another Trump presidency have passed and none of the dire consequences the left has warned you about actually happen, you need to ask yourself why you were so easily manipulated and after doing so, maybe get a little pissed off about it.

Donald Trump colluded with Russia, Jussie Smollett was attacked by two Trump supporters, Trump called White Supremacists good people, Hunter's laptop was Russian disinformation, Border Patrol was whipping migrants, the border is secure while millions of illegals walk across it and also while many more were being flown into cities all across this nation, Joe Biden is running circles around everybody behind the scenes....all lies. Were you convinced to believe any of it?

You want to know who is responsible for creating the vast majority of the division created over the last 8 years? The Democratic Party and the liberal media. The Democrats could have simply acknowledged that Trump beat Hillary, moved on and tried to find common ground. But no, they declared war on Trump and tried to win by any means necessary all the while trying to convince their supporters to hate Trump enough to play along. And in far too many cases it worked.

The nation has moved on from that BS. And if there are any people who still believe all the propaganda, spread across all the years, in an effort to convince you to hate Donald Trump....you are now in the minority. This election proves it.
I dont hate Donald Trump for any of those reasons. I hated Donald Trump the minute he put himself into politics. He is an absolutely detestable human with no redeeming qualities so far as I can tell. I dont base that determination on any reporting or any filters. I base it on what I see and hear from the man himself. I see him insult and mock the disabled. I see him cheat on every version of a family he's ever had. I see him denigrate group after group and fan flames of anger and hatred. I see him flaunt the rule of law and openly state that he's above it completely. None of that is spin or propaganda. Thats all Trump himself.

And i do not have a solitary thing in common with anyone who cant see those things about Donald Trump.
 
You, and so many others, have been manipulated into believing so many things that are simply not true by a party, aided and abetted by the liberal media, who desperately wanted to stay in power. After 4 more years of another Trump presidency have passed and none of the dire consequences the left has warned you about actually happen, you need to ask yourself why you were so easily manipulated and after doing so, maybe get a little pissed off about it.

Donald Trump colluded with Russia, Jussie Smollett was attacked by two Trump supporters, Trump called White Supremacists good people, Hunter's laptop was Russian disinformation, Border Patrol was whipping migrants, the border is secure while millions of illegals walk across it and also while many more were being flown into cities all across this nation, Joe Biden is running circles around everybody behind the scenes....all lies. Were you convinced to believe any of it?

You want to know who is responsible for creating the vast majority of the division created over the last 8 years? The Democratic Party and the liberal media. The Democrats could have simply acknowledged that Trump beat Hillary, moved on and tried to find common ground. But no, they declared war on Trump and tried to win by any means necessary all the while trying to convince their supporters to hate Trump enough to play along. And in far too many cases it worked.

The nation has moved on from that BS. And if there are any people who still believe all the propaganda, spread across all the years, in an effort to convince you to hate Donald Trump....you are now in the minority. This election proves it.

I mean you make some decent points and we're definitely doing some things very wrong but you're also ignoring a lot of stuff here. "Stand back and stand by", wearing proud boy colors, and having a blatantly racist comedian open your rally doesn't specifically say white supremacists are "good" people, but it says you're "with" them. I never believed the border was secure and frankly I don't care, but I know most of you will blame dems when an apple costs $5 because we donlt have anyone to pick them. What I do believe - I believe Trump slept with a porn star while his wife was pregnant. I believe Trump said it's OK to grab women by the pussy and meant it. I believe he has abolutely zero religious inclination whatsover but sells autographed Bibles for profit. I believe he's the only person I've ever seen run multiple casinos into bankruptcy and that he wouldn't have been shit as a businessman without being born on third base. I believe he's the only politician in history that has had multiple groups of people FROM HIS OWN PARTY start coalitions to prevent him from getting elected. I believe 80% of his cabinet and nearly everyone he works with in any capacity quits mid-job and tells the truth about him after while remaining Republican. I believe he's a convicted felon and deserves to be because he broke the law, even if his inflamatory and unnecessary bravado also played a role in his getting charged. So if the media fabricated or exaggerated a few things, it doesn't change my opinion of him. He's a truly loathesome indvidual and just a horrible person. That's not a media creation and if you think he's even a remotely decent person you're just gullible as can be.

But I don't believe you lose an election this badly to this level of creep without missing a lot of things yourself and making major, major errors. And after this curb stomping I don't believe that every person who voted for him is a grand wizard either. What does this demographic find so loathesome about the dems that they would vote for this guy over us? We're not going to win the presidency back by just calling them idiots, especially if we don't get the benefit of a mishandled pandemic or a historic financial meltdown like W delivered to us on a silver platter.

I've also thought about my own redneck town upbringing and where I might be if I wasn't blessed with an upper middle class family and the brains to get into a good school where I changed a lot of the ideas I had coming in. You can say these people are dogshit humans and maybe a lot of them are, but unless you've lived in these places you don't understand what they are born into. Libs will make excuses all day for a minority born in a high rise but a white man born into racism, hate and borderline poverty is supposed to just see the light. That's not reality.

So yeah we've made a lot of mistakes, but if you think I was brainwashed into thinking Donald Trump is a vile piece of shit, bless your'e heart. We don't need to reach all 75 million of the people that voted for him. Just five or ten is probably enough, and we can do that, but not by calling the whole lot of them morons. But I think you're probably like a human Wyoming. Probably don't need to be focusing too much on reaching you.
 
Your characterization of people on the left sharpening knives behind their backs is juvenile. Everyone left of center wanted to win this election. Everyone is mad that we didn’t. Bernie Sanders has a right to blame whoever the hell he wants. He’s taken enough false blame for the outcome of 2016. There is blame being cast at everyone in the party right now.

If you’ve read any of my other posts today, my argument about why I think Bernie would’ve won is implicit. I’ve attached multiple articles that have laid out the case in more detail.

The point about Sanders losing Mondale style sounds like something Chris Matthew spewed out in 2015 and every MSNBC viewer ran with it.

What you’re saying is equivalent to Republicans not wanting Democrats to talk about gun control after a school shooting.
I didn't say that Bernie would have lost Mondale style. Don't attribute other peoples' posts to me. I said anybody who thinks they know what would have happened is a fool. I read the article you linked. It's all argument and grievance and conjecture, not anything approaching evidence. Because no one can have evidence either way. It's why counterfactuals are pointless and ultimately lazy arguments - they're impossible to realistically test and disprove.

The quote about sharpening knives is because of the fact that it took less than 24 hours for Bernie, among others, to go from endorsing the Dem nominee to openly and unequivocally calling Dems traitors to the working class. That was not the tone or content of a post from someone who seems to have any intention of working with Dems moving forward. Anyone who thinks quotes like that can't and won't be spun to openly court disaffected progressives to the conservative coalition is fooling themselves. And it's especially dumb to blame the election on Dems not pushing economic policies that would help the working class when working class voters just fled to a candidate who not only is not offering any economic policies that would help the working class, but openly supported policies that would hurt the working class and help the rich.

Progressives love to accuse the Dems of preferring Republicans to progressives because we're all part of the same neoliberal order or whatever. Is that honestly what you want to accuse us of? That we'd prefer Trump to Sanders? Is that the sentiment you think is being expressed here? Why is it so hard for progressives to acknowledge that the Democratic Party is full of people who generally agree with progressive policy proposals, but disagree about strategy and approach, the better off we'll all be. From some of the things progressives say I honestly get the feeling you prefer to see Dems as enemies rather than allies.
 
I've also thought about my own redneck town upbringing and where I might be if I wasn't blessed with an upper middle class family and the brains to get into a good school where I changed a lot of the ideas I had coming in. You can say these people are dogshit humans and maybe a lot of them are, but unless you've lived in these places you don't understand what they are born into. Libs will make excuses all day for a minority born in a high rise but a white man born into racism, hate and borderline poverty is supposed to just see the light. That's not reality.

I have kin who are good-hearted people in eastern NC who are maga. I don't consider them dogshit, but polarization tilted them red, then tribalism, confirmation-bias and misinfo/disinfo nailed the coffin.

Confirmation-bias will always be a thing. Tribalism too. So I don't see how you solve any of this given the misinfo/disinfo problems stemming from the Rush Limbaugh/Rogan/TPUsa approach.
 
So, a couple things first:

--I don't want this to be a blame thread. There are plenty of threads for that. I'd like to focus the conversation on at least semi-constructive, forward-looking dialogue.

--I don't want this to be a "fear of what the Trump admin will do" thread. There are also plenty of threads about that.

OK, with that out of the way, what do you guys think is the way to get the country back on the right track? We've now had about a decade of reactionary backlash against what had been steady, if not perfect, progress on many social and economic issues. We have a Supreme Court that will soon have 1-2 more young conservative appointees and an untouchable conservative majority for 20 years, barring court expansion. We have a gerrymandered congressional landscape where Republicans hold a major advantage in numerous states, which matters at both the state level and federal level. We have a something like half the population that has made clear that it's OK with at least a little bit of old-fashioned authoritarianism if they think it means lower taxes and/or more money for them.

So how do liberals get the train back on the track? By which I mean continue to strengthen (or repair, if it's dismantled) the social safety net; resuming progress on climate change and the environment that is going to be rolled back by Republican de-regulation; and maintaining and continuing progress on social issues (gay marriage, trans marriage, abortion/gender equality, racial equality), and generally reversing the slow but deliberate drift of the country towards authoritarianism (and really this has been happening throughout the world).

Here are my big-picture thoughts:

  1. Find a new approach/paradigm for mainstream media. This election made clear to me, once and for all, that traditional media is dead and beyond saving. I'm not interested in debating the reasons or pointing fingers, but the old model of journalism has become economically infeasible and has proven completely ineffective at combating the rise of social media, and "new" media more broadly. Major newspapers are almost all gone, and the ones that are left either have zero reach/influence whatsoever with the working class (NYT) or have become so watered-down in content, due to economic pressures and/or the pursuit of "both sidesing" (USA Today, for example) that they are effectively useless. Cable networks are falling victim to the same pressures and are increasingly incentivized to offer "infotainment" over straight news. The major news networks are somewhere in the middle, but generally so bland on news coverage that they're no one's first choice and have basically become irrelevant. There is no Dan Rather or Walter Cronkite that the country flocks to. And into the role these media entities once filled have stepped social media and new media, companies that have now captured bigger market shares and a more direct line to people's eyeballs and brains. If you asked a random sample of Americans who they trust more to deliver accurate news, a majority of Americans would likely choose Joe Rogan over any traditional network you can think of. Not only career media people like Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens and Megyn Kelly, but also people with no journalistic background like Theo Von and Alex Cooper, are becoming trusted news sources for many Americans. This is reality, and we're not going back. The internet has made media sources too diverse for there to be any broad cultural consensus about objective facts. So how do we deal with that? How do we deal with a media environment that disincentivizes careful research and sober reflection and instead incentivizes chaos, misinformation, and extremism? Outside of the wonky Pod Save American, mainstream liberal journalists have largely stayed out of the fray, but I don't think that's an option anymore. How do you do journalism - real journalism with discretion and judgment and researching and writing - in the next 20 years? Or is it simply not possible? The phrase that comes to my mind about the current online media atmosphere is "water, water everywhere, and not a drop to drink." We are drowning in information in today's society, able to find information more easily and quickly than ever before, but the vast majority of that information is useless, and it will only get worse because disinformation is winning everywhere, not just in the US. I mean for pete's sake, we found out weeks out that several influential conservative streamers were directly or indirectly being paid to spread Russian propaganda, and it did nothing to shake their influence or popularity. Because the reporting on it was coming from the government and mainstream media, and the people who like those conservative streamers are already conditioned to disbelieve everything that comes from those sources.
    1. I don't have a lot of answers here, but we have to find some way to (i) build another social network that can rival and ultimately eclipse Musk's Twitter, and (ii) reach young males with messages less toxic and insidious than the ones they currently get. Make Social Media Fun Again, or Make Social Media Healthy Again, or something.
[continued in part 2]
Regarding #1, i just saw this
 
Progressives love to accuse the Dems of preferring Republicans to progressives because we're all part of the same neoliberal order or whatever. Is that honestly what you want to accuse us of? That we'd prefer Trump to Sanders? Is that the sentiment you think is being expressed here? Why is it so hard for progressives to acknowledge that the Democratic Party is full of people who generally agree with progressive policy proposals, but disagree about strategy and approach, the better off we'll all be. From some of the things progressives say I honestly get the feeling you prefer to see Dems as enemies rather than allies.
I don’t believe that in terms of the average Democratic voter, no. I’m sorry if I insinuated that.

I think it often seems, from the POV of a progressive Democrat, that the party has been more willing to embrace conservatives and centrist talking points over progressive messaging for some time. And it has cost the party greatly. In our view, we’re reaping the effects of it now.

I do think there is a portion of the elite Democratic donor class/political class that is more comfortable dealing with the right than the left.
 
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