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Where do we go from here?

  • Thread starter Thread starter rodoheel
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 1K
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  • Politics 
Wherever we go, Democracy will not be the vehicle nor the destination in my opinion. I think that grave has been dug and now covered.
 
Paine said:
Maybe, maybe not. I tend to think you can bring some back, but at the end of the day, we aren’t talking about winning back the MAGA crowd. We’re talking about bringing people into the fold who currently sit out or voted for Trump due to other reasons.
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If people sat out or voted for Trump for any other reasons then they are simply ignorant.
 
Turd Ferguson said:
If people sat out or voted for Trump for any other reasons then they are simply ignorant.
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That kind of attitude doesn’t win elections. We can’t just sit here and say people are ignorant and that’s why Democrats didn’t win the election. Horrible strategy and part of what got us into the mess we’re in now.
 
Turd Ferguson said:
Maybe, but it's true.
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I agree to an extent. I get frustrated with people in my family who clearly have the capacity to understand and do research yet still voted for Trump. There are also a lot of people who don’t have that capacity through no fault of their own and vote for more amorphous reasons. There are also a ton of people who sit out the process because they’ve participated before and it hasn’t changed anything.

Frustrating attitude to have? Absolutely. But we have to engage with all voters in order to win. Writing people off as hopeless or ignorant or whatever creates a bad attitude among liberals that filters into peoples’ perceptions of Democrats.
 
Paine said:
I agree to an extent. I get frustrated with people in my family who clearly have the capacity to understand and do research yet still voted for Trump. There are also a lot of people who don’t have that capacity through no fault of their own and vote for more amorphous reasons. There are also a ton of people who sit out the process because they’ve participated before and it hasn’t changed anything.

Frustrating attitude to have? Absolutely. But we have to engage with all voters in order to win. Writing people off as hopeless or ignorant or whatever creates a bad attitude among liberals that filters into peoples’ perceptions of Democrats.
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That perception has always existed about liberals. What you noticing is people getting louder and more vehement because liberals have gained enough power in the last 75 years that the "common" man has been stripped of some of the prerogatives of being white Christian males and it chaps their ass. The worst thing is that society has been conditioned to accept that they are entitled, even nonbelievers.
 
finesse said:
That perception has always existed about liberals. What you noticing is people getting louder and more vehement because liberals have gained enough power in the last 75 years that the "common" man has been stripped of some of the prerogatives of being white Christian males and it chaps their ass. The worst thing is that society has been conditioned to accept that they are entitled, even nonbelievers.
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That perception hasn’t *always* existed about liberals. Democrats have been the party of liberalism and working people at the same time in the not too distant past. The egghead liberal professor who tells you how to live your life is different than the liberal Democrat who says everyone deserves human rights.

Your point about white backlash is well taken. That was the story behind Nixon and Reagan. Maybe even Trump 2016. Not sure that’s the case for 2024.
 
Paine said:
That perception hasn’t *always* existed about liberals. Democrats have been the party of liberalism and working people at the same time in the not too distant past. The egghead liberal professor who tells you how to live your life is different than the liberal Democrat who says everyone deserves human rights.

Your point about white backlash is well taken. That was the story behind Nixon and Reagan. Maybe even Trump 2016. Not sure that’s the case for 2024.
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I agree that Dems haven't always been perceived as they are now, however you want to describe it: Talking down, holier than thou, pretentious know-it-alls, judgemental etc.

Bill Clinton and Dems at the time certainly weren't perceived that way. So, what changed?
 
finesse said:
Why don't you look at how Adlai Stevenson did in 52 and 56 and get back to me?
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There was a lot more going on with the Stevenson elections than just him being perceived as an egghead liberal.

Stevenson was running against a better-liked, more recognizable figure who was also a New Deal liberal. The Alger Hiss debacle certainly didn’t help.
 
ZenMode said:
I agree that Dems haven't always been perceived as they are now, however you want to describe it: Talking down, holier than thou, pretentious know-it-alls, judgemental etc.

Bill Clinton and Dems at the time certainly weren't perceived that way. So, what changed?
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The party’s leadership is captive to an educated consultant class and nonprofit identity-focused issue world.

Hillary Clinton telling Bernie Sanders that breaking up the big banks won’t solve racism is the encapsulation of this dynamic.
 
Paine said:
There was a lot more going on with the Stevenson elections than just him being perceived as an egghead liberal.

Stevenson was running against a better-liked, more recognizable figure who was also a New Deal liberal. The Alger Hiss debacle certainly didn’t help.
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Iow, a man of the people..

Now ,I think Eisenhower was the last good man the Republicans ever elected as president but that was still the party of McCarthyism. Not sure what Hiss had to do with Stevenson.
 
finesse said:
Iow, a man of the people..

Now ,I think Eisenhower was the last good man the Republicans ever elected as president but that was still the party of McCarthyism. Not sure what Hiss had to do with Stevenson.
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Stevenson was a character witness for Hiss in 49 (they worked together in the AAA). Even though Stevenson really didn’t seem to know Hiss well. Of course this deposition was used against Stevenson when the Hiss stuff really kicked off.

People tried to tar Roosevelt with the soft on communism stuff, but Stevenson was the prototype for this type of Republican campaign tactic.

McCarthy even had a line when campaigning for Ike and Dick in 1952 where he said “Alger…I mean Adlai.”

Point being: yes, the Republican playbook of calling liberals soft (on communism, crime, whatever) and portraying them as elitist has been around for a while. The Democrats are able to get away from this by running people who buck this label/picture and by campaigning on issues that do the same, IMO.
 
Paine said:
Stevenson was a character witness for Hiss in 49 (they worked together in the AAA). Even though Stevenson really didn’t seem to know Hiss well. Of course this deposition was used against Stevenson when the Hiss stuff really kicked off.

People tried to tar Roosevelt with the soft on communism stuff, but Stevenson was the prototype for this type of Republican campaign tactic.

McCarthy even had a line when campaigning for Ike and Dick in 1952 where he said “Alger…I mean Adlai.”

Point being: yes, the Republican playbook of calling liberals soft (on communism, crime, whatever) and portraying them as elitist has been around for a while. The Democrats are able to get away from this by running people who buck this label/picture and by campaigning on issues that do the same, IMO.
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Yeah and with nothing even approaching an unbiased media anymore, the side that tells the most lies fastest profit most. The message hasn't changed nearly as much as the delivery system. It's still more about the 'pubs making people scared and longing for the better days that never existed.
 
finesse said:
Yeah and with nothing even approaching an unbiased media anymore, the side that tells the most lies fastest profit most. The message hasn't changed nearly as much as the delivery system. It's still more about the 'pubs making people scared and longing for the better days that never existed.
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Without a doubt, today’s media landscape makes it more challenging. Democrats haven’t done themselves any favors though. A lot of stuff they’ve done in the last 20 years has played into right-wing narratives about liberals. Dems have also been reticent to embrace their own independent media. Hopefully that changes.
 
Paine said:
The party’s leadership is captive to an educated consultant class and nonprofit identity-focused issue world.

Hillary Clinton telling Bernie Sanders that breaking up the big banks won’t solve racism is the encapsulation of this dynamic.
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I assume "identity-focused issue world" is a reference to identity politics. I think there's a significant amount of overlap between the former and latter groups you mention, but it certainly appears, based on post election polling, that identity politics was/is an anchor on the Democratic Party.

The question is whether or not the party can (or wants to) distance themselves from that portion of the party.

I know it's common to label all Trump voters as the uneducated, blindly allegiant masses. I believe a lot of the Trump support came in the form of votes against the ideals of the Left, which has infected the Democratic party. Biden was viewed as a traditional Democrat and did a good job of distancing himself from the Left.....and he kicked the shit out of Trump. Kamala was never able to do it. I'm not sure she even tried.
 
ZenMode said:
I assume "identity-focused issue world" is a reference to identity politics. I think there's a significant amount of overlap between the former and latter groups you mention, but it certainly appears, based on post election polling, that identity politics was/is an anchor on the Democratic Party.

The question is whether or not the party can (or wants to) distance themselves from that portion of the party.

I know it's common to label all Trump voters as the uneducated, blindly allegiant masses. I believe a lot of the Trump support came in the form of votes against the ideals of the Left, which has infected the Democratic party. Biden was viewed as a traditional Democrat and did a good job of distancing himself from the Left.....and he kicked the shit out of Trump. Kamala was never able to do it. I'm not sure she even tried.
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Identity politics isn’t exclusively associated with the left IMO.

There are several factions within the Democratic Party that I think can be roughly broken down as follows.

1. Non woke leftists (Bernie)
2. Woke leftists (activist types)
3. Woke moderates (Clinton, Harris)
4. Non woke moderates (Biden)

This is why simple discussions of left and right in the Democratic Party don’t really make sense. There is overlap between these groups on the margins of course. I tend to think that the word “woke” does have a meaning, though mine may not match the definition a lot of right-wingers have.

Right now a lot of woke moderates are suddenly acting like it was the identity politics (that they peddled) that is causing Dem losses. The reality is, it’s part woke and part lack of emphasis on working people and pocketbook economics.

The woke moderates are more than happen throw left economics under the bus by casting the entire left under the “woke” umbrella. It’s ahistorical though.
 
Paine said:
Identity politics isn’t exclusively associated with the left IMO.

There are several factions within the Democratic Party that I think can be roughly broken down as follows.

1. Non woke leftists (Bernie)
2. Woke leftists (activist types)
3. Woke moderates (Clinton, Harris)
4. Non woke moderates (Biden)

This is why simple discussions of left and right in the Democratic Party don’t really make sense. There is overlap between these groups on the margins of course. I tend to think that the word “woke” does have a meaning, though mine may not match the definition a lot of right-wingers have.

Right now a lot of woke moderates are suddenly acting like it was the identity politics (that they peddled) that is causing Dem losses. The reality is, it’s part woke and part lack of emphasis on working people and pocketbook economics.

The woke moderates are more than happen throw left economics under the bus by casting the entire left under the “woke” umbrella. It’s ahistorical though.
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I agree that identity politics is not unique to the Democratic party. To a point, we all engage in identity politics in our everyday lives. I do think that a decent portion of the identity politics we see in the Republican party is the result of, and reaction to, identity politics in the Democratic party...but that's a different discussion.

"Woke", at least on the right, is a cover-all term for most anything related to social activism that the Republican party doesn't like. Trans activism, DEI, progressive legal concepts....you can throw affirmative action in there. To varying degrees, those things are interwoven with identity politics and seem to be what voters are pushing back against.
 
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