Biorhythms for Wake Forest Game, 9 pm Tip

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superrific said:
Before Roy, there was Eddie Fogler, another guy with no experience and look what he did.
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Eddie took a much more typical route to becoming a HC after leaving Carolina and was merely a good, not great, coach.

He spent 3 years at Wichita State, where he had reasonably good success, before moving up to Vandy (a pretty terrible job despite being in the SEC), where he had success far beyond their normal standard, and only then got the job at South Carolina, where he was a decent but not great coach.

His HC story is much more similar to the standard "work your way up the ladder" story than a "successful at the highest levels of CBB right out of the gate" story.
 
Calheel said:
Yes, that is true.

And in today's day & age, you have way more pressure to produce or move on. You obviously can't give every coach five years.

But Hubert also ended K's career and was one wonky floor board from winning the national championship. So, he's shown some of the same potential that Dean showed in his first 3.5 years (as opposed to say a Carl Torbush or Matt Doherty, both of whom made it abundantly clear that 3 years was enough).

But I do think it is worth pointing out that you don't need to be an established coach to succeed at UNC. Both Roy and Dean had great success as a pressure cooker head coach based solely on the experience they gained as a UNC assistant coach.
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Those wonky floor boards. The dreams they have ruined over the years. Seriously, wasn't the old Boston Garden famous for its wonky floor boards? I thought I remember Bird saying something like, "the great thing about playing at home is I know where the dead spots are."

Remind me again what happened with the floor board? I thought it was determined that it wasn't wonky after all, but my memory for those things isn't great anymore. Not that it's particularly relevant.

I see your point and while I don't think it's wrong, I don't find it particularly persuasive. Plus, we got to play a 15 seed in the R of 8. What if we had to play UK and lost? How does that affect the analysis? Obviously, that sort of thing happens in the NCAA tournament a lot, and you can only play who's on the schedule. But it also means that maybe single year tourney success isn't a great predictor. Steve Fisher won an NCAA tournament in his first 6 games as a head coach. It was all downhill from there.

I think last year is a better argument. And this year -- we were counting on Cade Tyson and he just has not worked out. Sometimes that happens. Even "can't miss" players do miss. Did anyone think Derrick Williams would be out of the NBA just a few years after being drafted #2? It's easy to say, well that was a dumb pick, except that he was the consensus second-best player in the draft. Nobody was out there (at least not that I remember) saying, this guy sucks. He just underachieved. The Wolves made many dumb picks over the years, but I don't know if that was one.
 
stankeylegjones said:
In this very thread. We had a back-and-forth on it earlier.
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I didn’t criticize any particular player. I said that now that they are getting paid they should take their fair share of responsibility when things go wrong.

The coaches make mistakes as do the players.
 
Calheel said:
Like Larry Fedora?

Mac TTP analysis showed promoting an assistant from a successful program had the highest hit rate in cfb (although all possible routes are basically a crapshoot).

Hiring an up and comer could work. But it is no better odds than hiring an assistant.
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Larry Fedora wasn't a bad hire when chosen by Bubba and he was pretty successful here until all of his QBs fell short at the same time with little way to get a decent quick replacement. It's an interesting thought experiment to ponder if Fedora would have been ultimately successful had the transfer portal been in place by 2017 or 2018 and he could have gotten a much better QB.

My hunch is that CBB works differently than CFB because of there's no real equivalent in CBB to the roles of Offensive and Defensive Coordinators. The guys filling those positions at major CFB programs are already handing a role much closer to HC than anything that realistically exists within most CBB coaching staffs.
 
Bigs23 said:
I didn’t criticize any particular player. I said that now that they are getting paid they should take their fair share of responsibility when things go wrong.

The coaches make mistakes as do the players.
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You made that comment after I told you to stop criticizing the players.
 
SnoopRob said:
Eddie took a much more typical route to becoming a HC after leaving Carolina and was merely a good, not great, coach.

He spent 3 years at Wichita State, where he had reasonably good success, before moving up to Vandy (a pretty terrible job despite being in the SEC), where he had success far beyond their normal standard, and only then got the job at South Carolina, where he was a decent but not great coach.

His HC story is much more similar to the standard "work your way up the ladder" story than a "successful at the highest levels of CBB right out of the gate" story.
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My recollection was that he was pretty bad, but that's a highly unreliable recollection. I was using him to make the point that even at UNC "promote the top assistant" doesn't work all the time.
 
Bigs23 said:
Name the bad coaches who have done all of the following:
  • Coached in a national title game
  • Won the regular season title in a P5 conference
  • Been COY of a P5 conference
  • Won 70% of their games
  • Won 71% of their conference games
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Do you actually read what others type or are you just a bot regurgitating pre-planned talking points?

I've said that I don't think Hubert is a bad coach. He's a decent coach at a school that should never have to settle for decent.

I've also said that the problem with Hubert isn't the ceiling, it's the floor. In his 4 years at Carolina we've been a bubble team 3 of those years, missed the tournament once, and are in serious danger of missing it again this season. We've also been outside the top 25 rankings more weeks than we've been included and for 3 of Hubert's 4 seasons our highest ranking is at the beginning of the season based on prognostication and we then slide out of the rankings once the results of a decent number of games are known. We're well below the historical standards of the program with our performance over the last four years and missing the NCAAT this season should be enough to lead to a coaching change.
 
superrific said:
My recollection was that he was pretty bad, but that's a highly unreliable recollection. I was using him to make the point that even at UNC "promote the top assistant" doesn't work all the time.
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Ah, ok, my bad for misunderstanding what you were going for.

The reality is that Fogler did well at 2 of this 3 stops and was a fairly good coach at USCe, especially when considered against their post-ACC levels of historical success. But there's also nothing to suggest he was ever ready for a Carolina-level HC position, either.
 
superrific said:
Remind me again what happened with the floor board? I thought it was determined that it wasn't wonky after all, but my memory for those things isn't great anymore. Not that it's particularly relevant.
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Trigger warning for those who don't want to relive this moment.





 
Points 1 and 2 both seem dubious. We were losing by a point, right? Was Mondo guaranteed to score if he didn't turn the ankle? Were we guaranteed to get a stop on the next possession. The floorboard might have caused the twist but that's not fully clear from the video.

I thought the bigger issue was that Mondo had been playing injured all game, and after halftime his ankle tightened up and he lost a lot of mobility, making him ineffective in the second half.
 
Turd Ferguson said:
Never said it would make everything all better, but you can't stay with a coach if things aren't getting better and you aren't having good seasons consistently.
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Since you don't care about character, K in Durham was a joke and on the verge of being fired at about this stage of his career. Of course, he didn't nearly have the resume at this point Hubert did . There's something to be said about a little patience.
 
stankeylegjones said:
You made that comment after I told you to stop criticizing the players.
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Pointing out that the players need to play better is pretty much the lightest possible criticism.

How about this?

The players need to play better.
The coaches need to coach better.
The AD needs to AD better.
 
superrific said:
Points 1 and 2 both seem dubious. We were losing by a point, right? Was Mondo guaranteed to score if he didn't turn the ankle? Were we guaranteed to get a stop on the next possession. The floorboard might have caused the twist but that's not fully clear from the video.

I thought the bigger issue was that Mondo had been playing injured all game, and after halftime his ankle tightened up and he lost a lot of mobility, making him ineffective in the second half.
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A healthy Mondo probably brings UNC that title, but it’s not a sure thing.
 
Bigs23 said:
A healthy Mondo probably brings UNC that title, but it’s not a sure thing.
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That team with a healthy Mondo, a non-concussed Manek, and a Caleb Love who didn’t badly turn his ankle in the second half probably gets it done.
 
SnoopRob said:
Do you actually read what others type or are you just a bot regurgitating pre-planned talking points?

I've said that I don't think Hubert is a bad coach. He's a decent coach at a school that should never have to settle for decent.

I've also said that the problem with Hubert isn't the ceiling, it's the floor. In his 4 years at Carolina we've been a bubble team 3 of those years, missed the tournament once, and are in serious danger of missing it again this season. We've also been outside the top 25 rankings more weeks than we've been included and for 3 of Hubert's 4 seasons our highest ranking is at the beginning of the season based on prognostication and we then slide out of the rankings once the results of a decent number of games are known. We're well below the historical standards of the program with our performance over the last four years and missing the NCAAT this season should be enough to lead to a coaching change.
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IYO
 
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