“Black peoples jobs”

Bigger issue is why after 200 years, there is such a disparity between white people and others. What can we do to level the field? Of course, to the republicans systemic racism doesn’t exist and everyone is just inferior.
 
stankeylegjones said:
Wait, you do realize that there are many folks here, who've fled horrible situations, that simply cannot work legally, yet, right? I'm not in favor of letting them starve. Hopefully you're not either.
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Part of why we need a better process. Maybe starting with a comprehensive guest worker program.

But I agree with Harold that the politicians talk out of both sides of there mouths. They like to stir up voters while they also like the low labor cost.
 
EyeballKid said:
Yes, you’re reaching. And it’s clear you mis-read or misunderstood my post. But you do you, keep digging your heels in.

I am not pushing anything. In that post, I’m simply suggesting that if the poster I responded to was genuinely concerned about the number of construction jobs that are taken by undocumented workers (ie, in his view, jobs that would otherwise go to black or Hispanic US citizens), one remedy would be to increase the pay for construction workers—as opposed to relying on the low-cost labor of undocumented immigrants.

There is no inconsistency between that stance and the rest of my posts.

Given that construction companies need low-cost labor, they do not want to increase the pay of construction workers—so there will always be a need for “day laborers”.
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No, I didn't misread or misunderstand. You said that the poster should push for certain things, in favor of people hiring folks who cannot legally work here. I pointed out that there are a lot of people who cannot, yet, legally work here. And no hiring them would put them in dire situations. You trying to generalize this practice, ignoring the nuances, into a magat gotcha moment doesn't help those who you, in a later post, claimed to care about. That's the contradiction. I know you can see that and I think you don't agree with hurting those I'm talking about, but, for whatever reason(s), you don't want to update your post. So, as I said, you do you fam.
 
UNCatTech said:
Part of why we need a better process. Maybe starting with a comprehensive guest worker program.

But I agree with Harold that the politicians talk out of both sides of there mouths. They like to stir up voters while they also like the low labor cost.
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I agree, we need some kind of system to help those out who are in that situation.
 
haroldminer said:
Bigger issue is why after 200 years, there is such a disparity between white people and others. What can we do to level the field? Of course, to the republicans systemic racism doesn’t exist and everyone is just inferior.
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Not allowing certain folks access to income is not going to help level the field.
 
haroldminer said:
Hiring these worker without documentation is illegal. Why aren’t these companies being punished for it?

Ahh that’s right, everyone loves cheap labor and cheating on their taxes except when it is used to rile up racists.
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haroldminer said:
Why is that acceptable but being here undocumented isn’t? When was the last time you saw someone go to jail for hiring someone undocumented?

Republicans love undocumented workers. Rich people love them. They only hate them to rile you all up. That’s why the solutions they propose aren’t real. They don’t want the ‘problem’ to go away.
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You think these super wealthy construction companies are only in the pockets of Republicans?
 
stankeylegjones said:
No, I didn't misread or misunderstand. You said that the poster should push for certain things, in favor of people hiring folks who cannot legally work here. I pointed out that there are a lot of people who cannot, yet, legally work here. And no hiring them would put them in dire situations. You trying to generalize this practice, ignoring the nuances, into a magat gotcha moment doesn't help those who you, in a later post, claimed to care about. That's the contradiction. I know you can see that and I think you don't agree with hurting those I'm talking about, but, for whatever reason(s), you don't want to update your post. So, as I said, you do you fam.
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stankeylegjones said:
No, I didn't misread or misunderstand. You said that the poster should push for certain things, in favor of people hiring folks who cannot legally work here. I pointed out that there are a lot of people who cannot, yet, legally work here. And no hiring them would put them in dire situations. You trying to generalize this practice, ignoring the nuances, into a magat gotcha moment doesn't help those who you, in a later post, claimed to care about. That's the contradiction. I know you can see that and I think you don't agree with hurting those I'm talking about, but, for whatever reason(s), you don't want to update your post. So, as I said, you do you fam.
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Yes, you misunderstood or misread. And you’re doubling/tripling down.

Suggesting that those on the right should apply a consistent logic re:employing undocumented workers doesn’t imply that I would support their position even if they used consistent logic. You jumped to an incorrect conclusion, and when shown your error, you just keep pushing the incorrect conclusion.

I’m done. Have fun getting in the last word.
 
haroldminer said:
I forgot, remind me. Which political party is on the side of labor?
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The hospitality industry is just as guilty as construction. Look at Marriott’s contributions and tell me what you notice.
www.opensecrets.org

Marriott International Profile: Summary

Marriott International organization profile. Contributions in the 2024 cycle: $182,720. Lobbying in 2024: $950,000. Outside Spending in the 2024 cycle: $0.
www.opensecrets.org www.opensecrets.org
 
EyeballKid said:
Yes, you misunderstood or misread. And you’re doubling/tripling down.

Suggesting that those on the right should apply a consistent logic re:employing undocumented workers doesn’t imply that I would support their position even if they used consistent logic. You jumped to an incorrect conclusion, and when shown your error, you just keep pushing the incorrect conclusion.

I’m done. Have fun getting in the last word.
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As I said, especially if you are unwilling to talk, you do you fam.
 
haroldminer said:
I don’t follow your point in relation to me.
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You are pushing for folks to not be able to earn money through "day labor" jobs. That would include those who are unable to legally work at the moment, and those who are unable to find other forms of work, and those who would make less working alternative jobs, and ... so on.

Cutting options for those folks who are down on the lower end of the economic ladder, as you are pushing for, is not going to help them climb up to a higher rung.
 
stankeylegjones said:
You are pushing for folks to not be able to earn money through "day labor" jobs. That would include those who are unable to legally work at the moment, and those who are unable to find other forms of work, and those who would make less working alternative jobs, and ... so on.

Cutting options for those folks who are down on the lower end of the economic ladder, as you are pushing for, is not going to help them climb up to a higher rung.
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I didn't read his post that way.
I read it to say that if we punished the employers, then they would no longer have access to the lower wage workers and would be more on board for a guest worker or other program to help them get the labor that they need.

We blame people who just want to work, but cannot legally, yet the employers who reap the benefits of lower labor cost never seem to be talked about.
 
superrific said:
OK, that's fair. What you're saying is that the availability of immigrant labor drives down wages. That has nothing to do with "black jobs," or anything Trump was talking about, right? We can agree on this point, right? It also has nothing to do with inflation, assuming that wages are keeping up with inflation (they are).

The idea that immigrants drive down wages in their new country is an old one. And in the short-run, it's not necessarily wrong. In the long-term, it is wrong, because immigrants consume as much as they produce. So immigrants maybe take a construction job that others don't really want. Well, that immigrant has to eat, so there's now more demand for restaurants. The person who might otherwise have been banging roofs can now be a cook. And the availability of immigrant labor means that more houses get constructed, which means more construction material has to be produced. So the would-be roofer might instead manufacture or distribute shingles. The immigrant will probably also buy a car, which means more auto industry jobs, etc.

The way to know that immigrants do not drive down wages or take jobs is to think about how much immigration we have had over the years. In the last century alone, there have been tens of millions of immigrants and even more children of immigrants -- and yet native-born citizens still have jobs. How about wages? Working-class Americans have a standard of living that is much higher than the middle-classes in developing world economies. Because, in the long-run, wages are determined mostly by productivity.

Economists have studied this question for literally millions of man-hours. The short-term effects of immigration on wages is a subject of some dispute, ASAIK. Nobody thinks it has a large effect on wages, but there are some economists who think it has a short-term effect; others look at the data and see no effect at all. ASAIK no economists -- no respected professional ones, at least -- think that immigration lowers wages over the long-term. In fact, the consensus is that immigration usually has a slightly beneficial effect on wages, though that's less true in a free trade economy.

Are we on the same page now?
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I understand it helps the overall economy in a way. But I’m just talking about construction industry. Many work their way up starting with just a high school diploma to making it to a management position. These are the guys I’m talking about. They don’t have a two or four year degree to use in another career that’s not a dead end job. Construction is an opportunity for that type of person to make a really good living that they wouldn’t have chance to in any other industry like construction does. With poor entry level pay and higher cost of living it’s just not viable for a lot of people like it use to be.


I tend to agree with everything said in this article. Mainly that illegal immigration helps the overall economy but in a way that helps the employers get richer and makes life harder for low skilled workers already here.
 
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UNCatTech said:
I didn't read his post that way.
I read it to say that if we punished the employers, then they would no longer have access to the lower wage workers and would be more on board for a guest worker or other program to help them get the labor that they need.

We blame people who just want to work, but cannot legally, yet the employers who reap the benefits of lower labor cost never seem to be talked about.
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Pushing for means to punish those who are employing those who cannot work legally while also pushing for means to get those same folks opportunities to make money is completely different than pushing for means to punish those are employing those who cannot work legally. I'm all for the first part, because I'm all in on helping folks out who cannot work legally, or who cannot find decent-paying jobs, etc. - those folks who are far better off doing day labor than not, in particular.

Those two posters were simply pushing to punish those offering day laborers work, ignoring the implications it would have on those who count on that pay.
 
stankeylegjones said:
You are pushing for folks to not be able to earn money through "day labor" jobs. That would include those who are unable to legally work at the moment, and those who are unable to find other forms of work, and those who would make less working alternative jobs, and ... so on.

Cutting options for those folks who are down on the lower end of the economic ladder, as you are pushing for, is not going to help them climb up to a higher rung.
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Paying workers cash to avoid paying taxes and other benefits is illegal. Only the workers seem to get punished for it while the employers get all the benefit. The powerful don’t want these folks to come out of the shadows. There is the side benefit of using these vulnerable folks as political pawns to stoke fear and racism.
 
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