GOP & Policies toward/treatment of Transgender & other LGBTQ Americans

[HeelYeah2012]

I'm sorry, but what "average life outcome" could be worse than suicide? How could the worst possible "average life outcome" be worse than a child dying?

Keep in mind, this is completely nonmedical intervention. Most importantly, it is completely reversible. If the person changes their mind (if it is a "phase" as most dismissive folks assert that it is), they can go back to their old name and pronouns. If being called by the their preferred name and pronouns will literally save their life, I see that as an infinitesimally tiny price to pay, even if you think it is silly or ridiculous.

There is no worse outcome than suicide. But what if the suicide chance went from 1% to 2% when parents don’t play along (100% increase!) but the other 98-99% of the time the kid turns out to have a way better life? This example is just illustrative. Point is suicide stats alone don’t tell the full story without the context of what the outcomes are for the vast majority of people.

There’s also a middle ground where you can support your child and try to be there for them but still not accept the idea of being transgender. A good analogy in my mind is the same way you’d respond to someone you love being an alcoholic. I use this example because there is alcoholism in my extended family. To support an alcoholic you don’t just encourage them to drink just because that’s what they have an urge to do. You empathize with them, you support them however you can as they seek help, and you’re there as a trusted confidant for them. You don’t abandon them if they fall off the wagon a time or two. But the ultimate goal is to show you love them as they try and work through it all.

 

[sringwal]

For the record, heel2012 equates being transgender with alcoholism and mental illness. There is no reason to engage with him on the issue because he quite simply lacks the empathy to see outside his own experiences. He’s told us as much, repeatedly.

 

[CarolinaFever]

For the record, heel2012 equates being transgender with alcoholism and mental illness. There is no reason to engage with him on the issue because he quite simply lacks the empathy to see outside his own experiences. He’s told us as much, repeatedly.

There is no reason to engage with any of the few MAGAs on here. Just ignore them all.

 

[Calheel]

There is no worse outcome than suicide. But what if the suicide chance went from 1% to 2% when parents don’t play along (100% increase!) but the other 98-99% of the time the kid turns out to have a way better life? This example is just illustrative. Point is suicide stats alone don’t tell the full story without the context of what the outcomes are for the vast majority of people.

There’s also a middle ground where you can support your child and try to be there for them but still not accept the idea of being transgender. A good analogy in my mind is the same way you’d respond to someone you love being an alcoholic. I use this example because there is alcoholism in my extended family. To support an alcoholic you don’t just encourage them to drink just because that’s what they have an urge to do. You empathize with them, you support them however you can as they seek help, and you’re there as a trusted confidant for them. You don’t abandon them if they fall off the wagon a time or two. But the ultimate goal is to show you love them as they try and work through it all.

You could say the same thing for gay conversion therapy.

Just think how much happier these gay kids would be if they could lead a straight life.

 

[farce©]

For the record, heel2012 equates being transgender with alcoholism and mental illness. There is no reason to engage with him on the issue because he quite simply lacks the empathy to see outside his own experiences. He’s told us as much, repeatedly.

It’s apparent he didn’t bother spending 3 minutes reading the brief medical overview I linked.

 

[nycfan]

 

[nycfan]

 

[HeelYeah2012]

You could say the same thing for gay conversion therapy.

Just think how much happier these gay kids would be if they could lead a straight life.

I hear you, and I’m sure some people have made that argument. I might have made that argument myself when I was young & naive but I, like so many others, have grown to accept homosexuality without even a 2nd thought with the passage of time.

The major difference here is that being homosexual is literally based on something that we’ve all experienced: you like what you like, and you can’t help it much. Whether that’s talking about a romantic interest or a favorite food. Can’t really help what you like. Being transgender is a lot different than that because you are trying to convince someone that you literally *are* something you are not.

If someone says “I like spinach” who am I to tell them they are wrong? But if someone says “I literally am spinach” it’s ok for society to tell them they aren’t. Just my opinion and I don’t mind if you disagree.

 

[nycfan]

Hilariously, after decrying “indoctrination” it goes on to require “patriotic education” (much of which honestly looks focused on making Trump’s 250th anniversary celebration of the Declaration of Independence a focus of all kids — we had a lot of that for the Bicentennial back in 1976 and it was generally pretty fun, but not sure how much that was dictated by the POTUS, especially since there was no Dept of Education then).

 

[CarolinaFever]

Right out of the racist and bigoted playbook. They don't want to deal with reality and real history, or anyone that is outside of their straight white Christian bubble they want to live in. They are ignorant, ignorant creates fear, and fear creates racism and bigotry. Something is wrong with their souls. They want to live in ignorance, fear, and division instead of knowledge, unity and love.

 

[Calheel]

I hear you, and I’m sure some people have made that argument. I might have made that argument myself when I was young & naive but I, like so many others, have grown to accept homosexuality without even a 2nd thought with the passage of time.

The major difference here is that being homosexual is literally based on something that we’ve all experienced: you like what you like, and you can’t help it much. Whether that’s talking about a romantic interest or a favorite food. Can’t really help what you like. Being transgender is a lot different than that because you are trying to convince someone that you literally *are* something you are not.

If someone says “I like spinach” who am I to tell them they are wrong? But if someone says “I literally am spinach” it’s ok for society to tell them they aren’t. Just my opinion and I don’t mind if you disagree.

What a weird way to rationalize your anti-trans discrimination. A person can no more control their gender identity than their sexual preference. I can assure you that if trans kids could snap a finger and become cis, almost every single one would jump at the opportunity. Being trans in America is pretty crappy because there are an awful lot of Heelyeah's out there. And yet, people are willing to endure that crappiness because the alternative is hating yourself and, very often, suicide.

 

[farce©]

Just my opinion and I don’t mind if you disagree.

You really need to do some basic reading about gender dysphoria before forming an opinion, because your opinion is counter to the science on the issue.

 

[UNCatTech]

The Trump admin press release on transgender military members is just shameful:

“Consistent with the military mission and longstanding DoD policy, expressing a false “gender identity” divergent from an individual’s sex cannot satisfy the rigorous standards necessary for military service. Beyond the hormonal and surgical medical interventions involved, adoption of a gender identity inconsistent with an individual’s sex conflicts with a soldier’s commitment to an honorable, truthful, and disciplined lifestyle, even in one’s personal life. A man’s assertion that he is a woman, and his requirement that others honor this falsehood, is not consistent with the humility and selflessness required of a service member.”

It’s not enough to simply refuse to provide gender-affirming care. No, we have to call every transgender person a lying, dishonorable sack of shit too. Don’t hold your breath waiting for @HeelYeah2012 and other self-proclaimed “moderates” who claimed they just wanted trans people left alone as long as they stay out of women’s sports to criticize this.

What a complete load of shit.

Good thing he wasn't in the military because we all know that he is not honorable, truthful, and lives and undisciplined lifestyle.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

A person can no more control their gender identity than their sexual preference. I

Disagree. One is external to the self and is based on what someone likes. The other is trying to change the definition of self.

Not much sense in continuing the conversation when we disagree on this core point, but I do appreciate the back and forth.

 

[farce©]

Disagree. One is external to the self and is based on what someone likes. The other is trying to change the definition of self.

Not much sense in continuing the conversation when we disagree on this core point, but I do appreciate the back and forth.

So you disagree with the science. This isn’t a matter of opinion.

 

[UNCatTech]

If someone says “I like spinach” who am I to tell them they are wrong? But if someone says “I literally am spinach” it’s ok for society to tell them they aren’t. Just my opinion and I don’t mind if you disagree.

Damn man, you were so close.

This is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever heard to a trans person.

You are correct, if someone says that they are spinach then tell them they are not (you still don't need the government to be involved). But if someone says that their mind doesn't agree with their body and everything they think and feel align with being the opposite sex that they were born, it isn't the same.

 

[roostra]

There is no worse outcome than suicide. But what if the suicide chance went from 1% to 2% when parents don’t play along (100% increase!) but the other 98-99% of the time the kid turns out to have a way better life? This example is just illustrative. Point is suicide stats alone don’t tell the full story without the context of what the outcomes are for the vast majority of people.

There’s also a middle ground where you can support your child and try to be there for them but still not accept the idea of being transgender. A good analogy in my mind is the same way you’d respond to someone you love being an alcoholic. I use this example because there is alcoholism in my extended family. To support an alcoholic you don’t just encourage them to drink just because that’s what they have an urge to do. You empathize with them, you support them however you can as they seek help, and you’re there as a trusted confidant for them. You don’t abandon them if they fall off the wagon a time or two. But the ultimate goal is to show you love them as they try and work through it all.

There is a 2020 study that showed that 80% of Transgendered individuals have considered suicide and 40% have attempted it. So reducing those rates by 50% or more is substantial numbers.

And again, you still haven't identified what you think the harm of calling someone by their preferred name and pronouns. What are these bad "average life outcomes"? I genuinely don't know what you are concerned about happening to these kids.

If I had to guess, you may be concerned that if you call these kids by their preferred name and pronouns, then they will continue to be transgender. But that concern only holds water if there were some evidence that refusing to use the name/pronouns convinces them that they are not transgender. And there is Zero evidence that this is true. The only outcome of not using these terms that is supported by peer reviewed evidence is a substantially increased risk of suicide. I don't see how any other outcome, particularly when not backed by any scientific evidence, could outweigh that.

The psychological benefits of using their preferred name and pronouns accrue to the individual even if you don't agree that it is legitimate. Why would you not do something like that?

 

[Calheel]

Disagree. One is external to the self and is based on what someone likes. The other is trying to change the definition of self.

Not much sense in continuing the conversation when we disagree on this core point, but I do appreciate the back and forth.

The best thing for you would be to actually befriend and get to know real trans people. I am confident that would change your perspective. Absent that, the next best thing would be to educate yourself on the subject with sources other than social media. The video I linked is a good start, but there is a lot of research in this area. Saying "this is what I fundamentally believe and I will not change my mind" is not a very good way to go through life.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

So you disagree with the science. This isn’t a matter of opinion.

“The science” referred to this as gender identity disorder until they changed it on a dime like 10 years ago to gender dysphoria. Excuse me if I don’t take that science as the gospel. This is absolutely an area that is highly up for debate.

You sound like the wackos who dismiss anyone that doesn’t go along with believing humans can dictate the global climate in a meaningful way.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

Heelyeah: The major difference here is that being homosexual is literally based on something that we’ve all experienced: you like what you like, and you can’t help it much.

Also Heelyeah re: trans people: One is external to the self and is based on what someone likes.

I think you misunderstood me buddy. The one that is based on what someone likes is homosexuality.