GOP & Policies toward/treatment of Transgender & other LGBTQ Americans

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rodoheel said:
So how do you feel about put this executive order, HY?

www.whitehouse.gov

Ending Radical Indoctrination in K-12 Schooling – The White House

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered: Section 1. Purpose and
www.whitehouse.gov

This order would force schools and teachers to refuse to acknowledge a trans person’s gender identity, or face losing deferral funding. You say you don’t support anything that compels society to accept someone’s gender identity. What about compelling people to deny that identity? You think if a male student asks the teacher to use female pronouns and the teacher does so, the school should lose federal funding?
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I’m somewhere between this executive order and where you likely are.

I absolutely don’t think a teacher should be forced to play along with someone’s gender confusion. Particularly in younger grades (at least up to age 14 or so, perhaps longer) where it’s borderline child abuse in my opinion for society to play along with a boy who thinks he is a girl or vice versa.

That said, you can be on one side on the actual social issue (boys are boys and girls are girls) and still say it’s overreach by the government to pull federal funding if a teacher doesn’t fall in line with that line of thinking. Hence why this EO will likely be found illegal, no?

So here’s where I fall, summed up:

1) Teacher shouldn’t have to play along and it’s borderline dangerous for them to play along, no matter how self-righteous they may feel by recognizing all 73 genders or whatever.

2) Government shouldn’t pull funding if teacher does decide to play along.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
1) Teacher shouldn’t have to play along and it’s borderline dangerous for them to play along, no matter how self-righteous they may feel by recognizing all 73 genders or whatever.
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Why do you have such disdain for science and modern medicine? It is beyond reasonable debate that there are more than two genders. It's not even a close question. It's also been around for a very long time:

Third gender - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
You understand that using a transgender minor's preferred pronouns is directly correlated with a substantially decreased suicide risk right?

How is it "dangerous" for a teacher to refer to someone the way they request?
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
I’m somewhere between this executive order and where you likely are.

I absolutely don’t think a teacher should be forced to play along with someone’s gender confusion. Particularly in younger grades (at least up to age 14 or so, perhaps longer) where it’s borderline child abuse in my opinion for society to play along with a boy who thinks he is a girl or vice versa.

That said, you can be on one side on the actual social issue (boys are boys and girls are girls) and still say it’s overreach by the government to pull federal funding if a teacher doesn’t fall in line with that line of thinking. Hence why this EO will likely be found illegal, no?

So here’s where I fall, summed up:

1) Teacher shouldn’t have to play along and it’s borderline dangerous for them to play along, no matter how self-righteous they may feel by recognizing all 73 genders or whatever.

2) Government shouldn’t pull funding if teacher does decide to play along.
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No one suggests requiring teachers to “play along” as you so callously say. This FORBIDS teachers from using a student’s preferred gender. It is massive overreach, and your mischaracterization of the issue as “I don’t think teachers should be forced to play along with someone’s gender confusion” and your “73 genders” cheap shot is demeaning and completely misses the fucking point. I really don’t think you are this simple-minded, but you keep trying to convince you are.
 
roostra said:
You understand that using a transgender minor's preferred pronouns is directly correlated with a substantially decreased suicide risk right?

How is it "dangerous" for a teacher to refer to someone the way they request?
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I hate how much I have to hope that some people have straight children.
 
farce© said:
No one suggests requiring teachers to “play along” as you so callously say. This FORBIDS teachers from using a student’s preferred gender. It is massive overreach, and your mischaracterization of the issue as “I don’t think teachers should be forced to play along with someone’s gender confusion” and your “73 genders” cheap shot is demeaning and completely misses the fucking point. I really don’t think you are this simple-minded, but you keep trying to convince you are.
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Beat me to it. The dismissive and degrading language used belies his purported moderate position on the issue.
 
roostra said:
You understand that using a transgender minor's preferred pronouns is directly correlated with a substantially decreased suicide risk right?

How is it "dangerous" for a teacher to refer to someone the way they request?
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A minor’s brain isn’t even close to fully developed. There are a lot of things they can’t do, as a result, because of their lack of judgment (drive a car, drink alcohol, etc.). Changing from boy to girl or vice versa is another one they obviously shouldn’t be able to do at an early age.

And clearly minors who are confused about their gender represent a particularly vulnerable subset of minors as far as mental health goes.

Adults playing along and pretending it’s all normal are not doing those kids the favor they think they are.
 
farce© said:
No one suggests requiring teachers to “play along” as you so callously say. This FORBIDS teachers from using a student’s preferred gender. It is massive overreach, and your mischaracterization of the issue as “I don’t think teachers should be forced to play along with someone’s gender confusion” and your “73 genders” cheap shot is demeaning and completely misses the fucking point. I really don’t think you are this simple-minded, but you keep trying to convince you are.
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I think it’s good practice for teachers to refer to their students based on their biological sex assigned at birth. I don’t actually think teachers or schools should be punished for doing the opposite. But I would rather a teacher be punished for playing along than for not playing along. But really it should be left up to the individual teacher to either play along or not.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
A minor’s brain isn’t even close to fully developed. There are a lot of things they can’t do, as a result, because of their lack of judgment (drive a car, drink alcohol, etc.). Changing from boy to girl or vice versa is another one they obviously shouldn’t be able to do at an early age.

And clearly minors who are confused about their gender represent a particularly vulnerable subset of minors as far as mental health goes.

Adults playing along and pretending it’s all normal are not doing those kids the favor they think they are.
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Peer-reviewed scientific studies literally say that a transgender minor's risk of suicide and risk of severe depression decreases by over 50% if they are called by their preferred name and pronouns. That seems like a pretty big favor to do for them.

Again, what is the danger if you use their preferred name and pronouns. Like, what specifically will happen to the minor if you address them this way? (and if you can provide your basis for believing whatever the danger is, that would be even better)
 
roostra said:
Peer-reviewed scientific studies literally say that a transgender minor's risk of suicide and risk of severe depression decreases by over 50% if they are called by their preferred name and pronouns. That seems like a pretty big favor to do for them.

Again, what is the danger if you use their preferred name and pronouns. Like, what specifically will happen to the minor if you address them this way? (and if you can provide your basis for believing whatever the danger is, that would be even better)
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I don’t doubt that most kids are happier and less depressed when the grown ups in their life let them do whatever they want to do. Sometimes we have to do things that are in our kids’ long term best interests instead of prioritizing their short term happiness.

The data you cited about suicides is tragic, but it also doesn’t tell the full story. First of all there is a chicken and egg scenario between high suicide rates and being transgender. Does having people not accept your transgenderism really drive the suicides? Or is the mental illness of depression correlated with the mental illness of gender identity disorder in the first place?

The data you cited also doesn’t tell us what happens to the vast majority of people struggling with this confusion who don’t end up committing suicide, and whether the “average” life outcome of those folks is better for people whose parents gently nudged them back to a more traditional life instead of letting them decide at age 10 that they can change their gender.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
I think it’s good practice for teachers to refer to their students based on their biological sex assigned at birth. I don’t actually think teachers or schools should be punished for doing the opposite. But I would rather a teacher be punished for playing along than for not playing along. But really it should be left up to the individual teacher to either play along or not.
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Ok Heelyeah, this video is an hour long, and Cody does get linked on this board quite a lot, and yes he is definitely quite progressive. That said, I really strongly encourage you to take an hour of your time this weekend to watch the video and just think about some of the points he makes. And maybe even read some of the studies he cites and critiques. You don’t have to agree with everything he says, but you would be a better person and citizen if you at least thought about some of these points.


 
I think a lot of folks presume HeelYeah would prefer a lower suicide risk for trans kids'. But you see, he doesn't care, if caring requires him to accept their existence. I.e. HeelYeah prefers more adolescents die than be inconvenienced by language or the existence of people he doesn't understand. No amount of research will convince. The overwhelming benefit of calling a trans kid their preferred name and pronoun is too tall a task to merely save the lives of children.
 
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Calheel said:
Ok Heelyeah, this video is an hour long, and Cody does get linked on this board quite a lot, and yes he is definitely quite progressive. That said, I really strongly encourage you to take an hour of your time this weekend to watch the video and just think about some of the points he makes. And maybe even read some of the studies he cites and critiques. You don’t have to agree with everything he says, but you would be a better person and citizen if you at least thought about some of these points.


Click to expand...

I will give that a shot whenever I have some time. Thanks for sharing!
 
Healing said:
I think a lot of folks presume HeelYeah would prefer a lower suicide risk for trans kids'. But you see, he doesn't care, if caring requires him to accept their existence. I.e. HeelYeah prefers more adolescents die than be inconvenienced by language or the existence of people he doesn't understand. No amount of research will convince. The overwhelming benefit of calling a trans kid their preferred name and pronoun is too tall a task to save just a few lives.
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Yea for some reason people keep talking to him like he gives a shit about anyone but himself. He’s the absolute worst person on this board
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
I don’t doubt that most kids are happier and less depressed when the grown ups in their life let them do whatever they want to do. Sometimes we have to do things that are in our kids’ long term best interests instead of prioritizing their short term happiness.

The data you cited about suicides is tragic, but it also doesn’t tell the full story. It doesn’t tell us what happens to the vast majority of people struggling with this confusion who don’t end up committing suicide, and whether the “average” life outcome of those folks is better for people whose parents gently nudged them back to a more traditional life instead of letting them decide at age 10 that they can change their identity.
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I'm sorry, but what "average life outcome" could be worse than suicide? How could the worst possible "average life outcome" be worse than a child dying?

Keep in mind, this is completely nonmedical intervention. Most importantly, it is completely reversible. If the person changes their mind (if it is a "phase" as most dismissive folks assert that it is), they can go back to their old name and pronouns. If being called by the their preferred name and pronouns will literally save their life, I see that as an infinitesimally tiny price to pay, even if you think it is silly or ridiculous.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
I’m somewhere between this executive order and where you likely are.

I absolutely don’t think a teacher should be forced to play along with someone’s gender confusion. Particularly in younger grades (at least up to age 14 or so, perhaps longer) where it’s borderline child abuse in my opinion for society to play along with a boy who thinks he is a girl or vice versa.

That said, you can be on one side on the actual social issue (boys are boys and girls are girls) and still say it’s overreach by the government to pull federal funding if a teacher doesn’t fall in line with that line of thinking. Hence why this EO will likely be found illegal, no?

So here’s where I fall, summed up:

1) Teacher shouldn’t have to play along and it’s borderline dangerous for them to play along, no matter how self-righteous they may feel by recognizing all 73 genders or whatever.

2) Government shouldn’t pull funding if teacher does decide to play along.
Click to expand...
Yes, the order is definitely illegal. I'm glad you agree it goes too far. Though you don't seem as bothered by the fact that Trump is once against spending most of his time doing illegal things that waste a lot of time and money and cause a lot of unnecessary pain to regular Americans along the way.

I don't necessarily think teachers should be *forced* to use a student's correct pronouns. Probably a first amendment violation. I do think, as a practical matter, any teacher who wouldn't at least call a student the name they ask to be called is not a teacher I would want teaching my kids. In my experience, to be effective a teacher has to respect their students and treat them with compassion. And the kids need to trust them. I don't want or expect teachers to be heavily involved in dealing with any kid's gender issues unless both the kid and the teacher want it that way, but I can't imagine anything more cruel than forcing a teacher to alienate their own students and make the students uncomfortable in their classroom. Which is just what this executive order is designed to do.
 
Healing said:
I think a lot of folks presume HeelYeah would prefer a lower suicide risk for trans kids'. But you see, he doesn't care, if caring requires him to accept their existence. I.e. HeelYeah prefers more adolescents die than be inconvenienced by language or the existence of people he doesn't understand. No amount of research will convince. The overwhelming benefit of calling a trans kid their preferred name and pronoun is too tall a task to merely save the lives of children.
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Just from a quick google search about gen z the odds of him having an LGBTQ kid are about 1 in 3. We need to hope that the likely outcome is what happens here.
 
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