GOP & Policies toward/treatment of Transgender & other LGBTQ Americans

[roostra]

There is no worse outcome than suicide. But what if the suicide chance went from 1% to 2% when parents don’t play along (100% increase!) but the other 98-99% of the time the kid turns out to have a way better life? This example is just illustrative. Point is suicide stats alone don’t tell the full story without the context of what the outcomes are for the vast majority of people.

There’s also a middle ground where you can support your child and try to be there for them but still not accept the idea of being transgender. A good analogy in my mind is the same way you’d respond to someone you love being an alcoholic. I use this example because there is alcoholism in my extended family. To support an alcoholic you don’t just encourage them to drink just because that’s what they have an urge to do. You empathize with them, you support them however you can as they seek help, and you’re there as a trusted confidant for them. You don’t abandon them if they fall off the wagon a time or two. But the ultimate goal is to show you love them as they try and work through it all.

There is a 2020 study that showed that 80% of Transgendered individuals have considered suicide and 40% have attempted it. So reducing those rates by 50% or more is substantial numbers.

And again, you still haven't identified what you think the harm of calling someone by their preferred name and pronouns. What are these bad "average life outcomes"? I genuinely don't know what you are concerned about happening to these kids.

If I had to guess, you may be concerned that if you call these kids by their preferred name and pronouns, then they will continue to be transgender. But that concern only holds water if there were some evidence that refusing to use the name/pronouns convinces them that they are not transgender. And there is Zero evidence that this is true. The only outcome of not using these terms that is supported by peer reviewed evidence is a substantially increased risk of suicide. I don't see how any other outcome, particularly when not backed by any scientific evidence, could outweigh that.

The psychological benefits of using their preferred name and pronouns accrue to the individual even if you don't agree that it is legitimate. Why would you not do something like that?

 

[Calheel]

Disagree. One is external to the self and is based on what someone likes. The other is trying to change the definition of self.

Not much sense in continuing the conversation when we disagree on this core point, but I do appreciate the back and forth.

The best thing for you would be to actually befriend and get to know real trans people. I am confident that would change your perspective. Absent that, the next best thing would be to educate yourself on the subject with sources other than social media. The video I linked is a good start, but there is a lot of research in this area. Saying "this is what I fundamentally believe and I will not change my mind" is not a very good way to go through life.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

So you disagree with the science. This isn’t a matter of opinion.

“The science” referred to this as gender identity disorder until they changed it on a dime like 10 years ago to gender dysphoria. Excuse me if I don’t take that science as the gospel. This is absolutely an area that is highly up for debate.

You sound like the wackos who dismiss anyone that doesn’t go along with believing humans can dictate the global climate in a meaningful way.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

Heelyeah: The major difference here is that being homosexual is literally based on something that we’ve all experienced: you like what you like, and you can’t help it much.

Also Heelyeah re: trans people: One is external to the self and is based on what someone likes.

I think you misunderstood me buddy. The one that is based on what someone likes is homosexuality.

 

[UNCatTech]

Disagree. One is external to the self and is based on what someone likes. The other is trying to change the definition of self.

Not much sense in continuing the conversation when we disagree on this core point, but I do appreciate the back and forth.

Disagree all you want, you are wrong. But hey at least you gave us permission to disagree with you.

And there are multiple examples in the world where animals naturally change sex.

You know every newborn clown fish is male, they transition into females later in life as needed.

You do also realize that male or female all humans start out the same in the womb, correct? You do realize that humans are born with both sex organs, correct?

 

[UNCatTech]

“The science” referred to this as gender identity disorder until they changed it on a dime like 10 years ago to gender dysphoria. Excuse me if I don’t take that science as the gospel. This is absolutely an area that is highly up for debate.

You sound like the wackos who dismiss anyone that doesn’t go along with believing humans can dictate the global climate in a meaningful way.

Really HY? You don't believe in climate change either? Wow.

 

[UNCatTech]

The other is trying to change the definition of self.

The definition of self isn't based on one's sex organs. That's a really narrow definition.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

The best thing for you would be to actually befriend and get to know real trans people. I am confident that would change your perspective. Absent that, the next best thing would be to educate yourself on the subject with sources other than social media. The video I linked is a good start, but there is a lot of research in this area. Saying "this is what I fundamentally believe and I will not change my mind" is not a very good way to go through life.

I never said I’m not open to changing my mind. I have an open mind to that on all subjects and I already told you I would check out the video you linked when I have time.

 

[McAdooSmackinYou]

Yeah you seem really busy

 

[farce©]

“The science” referred to this as gender identity disorder until they changed it on a dime like 10 years ago to gender dysphoria. Excuse me if I don’t take that science as the gospel. This is absolutely an area that is highly up for debate.

You sound like the wackos who dismiss anyone that doesn’t go along with believing humans can dictate the global climate in a meaningful way.

Yeah, science has a habit of changing as the acquire more information. But I’m the wacko.

 

[UNCatTech]

The best thing for you would be to actually befriend and get to know real trans people. I am confident that would change your perspective. Absent that, the next best thing would be to educate yourself on the subject with sources other than social media. The video I linked is a good start, but there is a lot of research in this area. Saying "this is what I fundamentally believe and I will not change my mind" is not a very good way to go through life.

The issue will be recognizing a trans person. Every trans person I know, one would not know unless they are told.

I guess he could go somewhere where there is a greater chance of meeting a trans person.

 

[ChileG]

Imagine the obscene arrogance and lack of self-awareness to not only refuse to participate in the democratic process, but to then blame the side that lost for the negative result.

Luckily for us, we don’t have to imagine.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

This executive order doesn't just focus on teachers not being allowed to call transgender students by their preferred name, but it is considerably more broad in that it attacks the whole idea of discussing the darker parts and uglier aspects of American history. Teaching that the United States has not been "fundamentally racist, sexist, or discriminatory" throughout its history is a flat-out lie. Yes there have certainly been improvements, but there have also been setbacks and the job is still far from finished. This EO comes directly from what GOP governors like DeSantis in Florida or Abbott in Texas have been doing for the past several years, and from what conservative education activists like Chris Rufo have been pushing.

 

[Zoo_View]

I hear you, and I’m sure some people have made that argument. I might have made that argument myself when I was young & naive but I, like so many others, have grown to accept homosexuality without even a 2nd thought with the passage of time.

The major difference here is that being homosexual is literally based on something that we’ve all experienced: you like what you like, and you can’t help it much. Whether that’s talking about a romantic interest or a favorite food. Can’t really help what you like. Being transgender is a lot different than that because you are trying to convince someone that you literally *are* something you are not.

If someone says “I like spinach” who am I to tell them they are wrong? But if someone says “I literally am spinach” it’s ok for society to tell them they aren’t. Just my opinion and I don’t mind if you disagree.

Wow.

• “…..I literally am spinach….”

 

[Zoo_View]

The issue will be recognizing a trans person. Every trans person I know, one would not know unless they are told.

I guess he could go somewhere where there is a greater chance of meeting a trans person.

Yeah……that’s happening.

 

[hedge]

Excuse me if I don’t take that science as the gospel. This is absolutely an area that is highly up for debate.

I trust science a lot more than I trust the gospels (speaking of an area that is absolutely highly up for debate)...

 

[HeelYeah2012]

I trust science a lot more than I trust the gospels (speaking of an area that is absolutely highly up for debate)...

I completely agree that the gospels is an area that is highly up for debate, and I would look silly if I sat here and tried to speak about them like they were clearly correct and anyone who disagreed was a buffoon.

But that's exactly what people here do when someone suggests that being transgender is a mental disorder, despite the fact that scientists themselves called it gender identity disorder as recently as like 10 years ago.

 

[hedge]

I long for the day when religious belief will be considered a disorder, and I believe that day will come, but I don't think I'll live to see it...

 

[Zoo_View]

I completely agree that the gospels is an area that is highly up for debate, and I would look silly if I sat here and tried to speak about them like they were clearly correct and anyone who disagreed was a buffoon.

But that's exactly what people here do when someone suggests that being transgender is a mental disorder, despite the fact that scientists themselves called it gender identity disorder as recently as like 10 years ago.

In 1980, with the publication of DSM-III, “transsexualism” was first mentioned in a DSM. Prior to DSM-III, “transsexualism” wasn’t mentioned.

In 1994, with the publication of DSM-IV, scientists thought “transsexualism” potentially stigmatized people and they switched to “gender identity disorder.”

In 2013, with the publication of DSM-5, “Gender Identity Disorder” was changed to “Gender Dysphoria” because the mental health issue wasn’t gender identity.

As the scientists have learned more, they’ve sought and debated over names and terms that better define things/situations. More importantly, they’ve sought and learned better ways to help trans people.

Being a “tough” parent will not help a trans child.

 

[hedge]

The DSM used to classify homosexuality as a disorder. I wonder if HY still believe in that science. Actually, I don't wonder...