GOP & Policies toward/treatment of Transgender & other LGBTQ Americans

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ZenMode said:
As a society, we have long recognized the importance, if not necessity, of separating males from females in sports around the time they hit puberty.

Males are males, regardless of what is going on in their brains that may make them believe otherwise. Males should compete against other males in sports.

It's a matter of fairness and safety, which is why we've been separating males and females for decades.
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the appeal to tradition just does not work here, as has been shown again and again in this thread. "fairness" is a concept that is malleable to the point of meaninglessness all the research has shown that there's no increased risk of injury, nor increased severity of injury, with trans women playing in women's sports.

this conversation has some nuance when we're talking about college, pro, or Olympic participation, all of which had guidelines that the vast majority of people found acceptable for trans women's participation before the right-wing culture warriors decided to target trans people with zero-tolerance malice. but for high school and beforehand? it's as simple as girls wanting to play sports with their friends. if there was as much danger to fairness and health as you claim, there would be high schools all over the country with records set exclusively by trans women rather than the <10 examples that wingnuts keep pulling up.
 
akillesheel said:
the appeal to tradition just does not work here, as has been shown again and again in this thread. "fairness" is a concept that is malleable to the point of meaninglessness all the research has shown that there's no increased risk of injury, nor increased severity of injury, with trans women playing in women's sports.

this conversation has some nuance when we're talking about college, pro, or Olympic participation, all of which had guidelines that the vast majority of people found acceptable for trans women's participation before the right-wing culture warriors decided to target trans people with zero-tolerance malice. but for high school and beforehand? it's as simple as girls wanting to play sports with their friends. if there was as much danger to fairness and health as you claim, there would be high schools all over the country with records set exclusively by trans women rather than the <10 examples that wingnuts keep pulling up.
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Top ten way to destroy an idea or innovation: "That's how it's always been done ".
 
I have an experiment for those concerned with who's using our restrooms.

On your next trip to the John, take some paper and record the gender of each person in the toilet. Since no one can be trusted, you will need to ask for physical evidence and document said evidence. This will be simple, just ask each person in the toilet if you can take a picture of their genitals.

Please report back in a week if you encountered any of those trans people.
 
ZenMode said:
As a society, we have long recognized the importance, if not necessity, of separating males from females in sports around the time they hit puberty.

Males are males, regardless of what is going on in their brains that may make them believe otherwise. Males should compete against other males in sports.
Click to expand...

I was very small in my early teens, but I wanted to play football for a private league (Pop Warner). I was easily the smallest male on the team, but I was 13
akillesheel said:
the appeal to tradition just does not work here, as has been shown again and again in this thread. "fairness" is a concept that is malleable to the point of meaninglessness all the research has shown that there's no increased risk of injury, nor increased severity of injury, with trans women playing in women's sports.
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I agree that the appeal to tradition is not a valid reason to continue doing something. I also agree that the risk of injury is not big because most women's sports, and sports in general, aren't contact sports likely to result in injury.
akillesheel said:
this conversation has some nuance when we're talking about college, pro, or Olympic participation, all of which had guidelines that the vast majority of people found acceptable for trans women's participation before the right-wing culture warriors decided to target trans people with zero-tolerance malice. but for high school and beforehand? it's as simple as girls wanting to play sports with their friends. if there was as much danger to fairness and health as you claim, there would be high schools all over the country with records set exclusively by trans women rather than the <10 examples that wingnuts keep pulling up.
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The nuance for discussion begins at puberty. That is when males begin to develop in ways that give them a distinct physical advantage against females. is there a clear cut-off point? No. Your average 7th grade male may not have a distinct advantage against your average 7th grade female, but the more time goes on, the more males will have the advantage. It's a well documented, biological fact.

I don't want the federal government telling individual states/schools, etc how to do things, but a lack of acknowledgement doesn't mean males are suddenly not going to have an advantage in speed, strength and athleticism. Look at male vs female records beyond about 13 years old and you'll see the proof. Just watch a WNBA game compared to an NBA game... or a boys college game.... or a boys high school game. I'd wager a LOT of money that any of the top 10 boys High School boys teams would beat every WNBA team and it probably wouldn't be close.


We Thought Female Athletes Were Catching Up to Men, but They're Not

Across dozens of sports, women's world speed records consistently fall 10 percent short of men's records.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
 
ZenMode said:
I was very small in my early teens, but I wanted to play football for a private league (Pop Warner). I was easily the smallest male on the team, but I was 13

I agree that the appeal to tradition is not a valid reason to continue doing something. I also agree that the risk of injury is not big because most women's sports, and sports in general, aren't contact sports likely to result in injury.

The nuance for discussion begins at puberty. That is when males begin to develop in ways that give them a distinct physical advantage against females. is there a clear cut-off point? No. Your average 7th grade male may not have a distinct advantage against your average 7th grade female, but the more time goes on, the more males will have the advantage. It's a well documented, biological fact.

I don't want the federal government telling individual states/schools, etc how to do things, but a lack of acknowledgement doesn't mean males are suddenly not going to have an advantage in speed, strength and athleticism. Look at male vs female records beyond about 13 years old and you'll see the proof. Just watch a WNBA game compared to an NBA game... or a boys college game.... or a boys high school game. I'd wager a LOT of money that any of the top 10 boys High School boys teams would beat every WNBA team and it probably wouldn't be close.


We Thought Female Athletes Were Catching Up to Men, but They're Not

Across dozens of sports, women's world speed records consistently fall 10 percent short of men's records.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
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I'm a hobit sized guy. Most males have a physical advantage over me. Should I have been banned from playing on the high school boy's soccer team because I might get hurt? Would have sucked, since I was the starting center defender on varsity...
 
NYCBlueBlood said:
I'm a hobit sized guy. Most males have a physical advantage over me. Should I have been banned from playing on the high school boy's soccer team because I might get hurt? Would have sucked, since I was the starting center defender on varsity...
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I mentioned above that injury risk is not a huge issue because few women's sports involve significant physical collision between players. You're talking mostly about football and rugby. I don't believe either is a common female sport.
 
EhringhausSouth said:
So reading that, men do not become pregnant. I agree. It just isn't biologically possible.
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Quote from your previous post:

“so you are predicting that one day, they will be able to take a person born male, then insert a set of ovaries and a uterus in there and he will be able to carry children? I'm not sure I can see that happening…”

Well, per the article, it’s happening now.
 
ZenMode said:
I was very small in my early teens, but I wanted to play football for a private league (Pop Warner). I was easily the smallest male on the team, but I was 13

I agree that the appeal to tradition is not a valid reason to continue doing something. I also agree that the risk of injury is not big because most women's sports, and sports in general, aren't contact sports likely to result in injury.

The nuance for discussion begins at puberty. That is when males begin to develop in ways that give them a distinct physical advantage against females. is there a clear cut-off point? No. Your average 7th grade male may not have a distinct advantage against your average 7th grade female, but the more time goes on, the more males will have the advantage. It's a well documented, biological fact.

I don't want the federal government telling individual states/schools, etc how to do things, but a lack of acknowledgement doesn't mean males are suddenly not going to have an advantage in speed, strength and athleticism. Look at male vs female records beyond about 13 years old and you'll see the proof. Just watch a WNBA game compared to an NBA game... or a boys college game.... or a boys high school game. I'd wager a LOT of money that any of the top 10 boys High School boys teams would beat every WNBA team and it probably wouldn't be close.


We Thought Female Athletes Were Catching Up to Men, but They're Not

Across dozens of sports, women's world speed records consistently fall 10 percent short of men's records.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
Click to expand...
You keep making blanket statements that every man is stronger than every woman, it's simply not true.

That's another variable in calculating actual risk, instead of the emotional, lie feed, bullshit that the right has sold to America.

I had a friend in high-school that went undefeated in 4 years of high-school varsity wrestling, he was pretty good, but he was also very small, 40% of his matches were won by forfeit because the other school didn't have anyone in his weight class. His girlfriend was on the basketball team. She regularly beat him in basketball. There's no possible way, if he were trans, that he would make any difference on a girls team. BUT you keep telling us he would dominate simply because he was born male. Go figure.
 
ZenMode said:
I was very small in my early teens, but I wanted to play football for a private league (Pop Warner). I was easily the smallest male on the team, but I was 13

I agree that the appeal to tradition is not a valid reason to continue doing something. I also agree that the risk of injury is not big because most women's sports, and sports in general, aren't contact sports likely to result in injury.

The nuance for discussion begins at puberty. That is when males begin to develop in ways that give them a distinct physical advantage against females. is there a clear cut-off point? No. Your average 7th grade male may not have a distinct advantage against your average 7th grade female, but the more time goes on, the more males will have the advantage. It's a well documented, biological fact.

I don't want the federal government telling individual states/schools, etc how to do things, but a lack of acknowledgement doesn't mean males are suddenly not going to have an advantage in speed, strength and athleticism. Look at male vs female records beyond about 13 years old and you'll see the proof. Just watch a WNBA game compared to an NBA game... or a boys college game.... or a boys high school game. I'd wager a LOT of money that any of the top 10 boys High School boys teams would beat every WNBA team and it probably wouldn't be close.


We Thought Female Athletes Were Catching Up to Men, but They're Not

Across dozens of sports, women's world speed records consistently fall 10 percent short of men's records.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
Click to expand...
Your link is about records. Those settings records st the top of both groups. I guarantee that if you interlaced all of the records many women will have better times than many men. Not beating the to one percent doesn't prove your point.
 
ZenMode said:
I mentioned above that injury risk is not a huge issue because few women's sports involve significant physical collision between players. You're talking mostly about football and rugby. I don't believe either is a common female sport.
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Well I knew some women who played in a rugby league here in NYC back in the day, but I think the league was predominantly lesbian.

My point was that physical disparities are just a part of sports. At the college+ level, sure, I get it. But before then who cares? I had to play against guys who were a foot taller than me and had a significant weight difference. So what? Unless it's boxing/ wrestling, you don't get to pick a weight category.

Sometimes you have games where you dominate... sometimes you have games where you're dominated. That's part of sports as a kid. Teaches you how to win and lose. As far as I know, nobody was traumatized for life because the other team had a kid who was 6 inches taller than anybody on your team.

In other words, who cares if some person born male wants to compete in high school as a girl? Nobody is going to die over it. I had to go up against some serious gorillas I was sure were in their 20s... I was not traumatized for life by it.
 
UNCatTech said:
Your link is about records. Those settings records st the top of both groups. I guarantee that if you interlaced all of the records many women will have better times than many men. Not beating the to one percent doesn't prove your point.
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It's not just the 1%. The physical differences that created the differences at the highest levels still exist at lower levels. It's why, among other things, Lia Thomas was the 500th ranked male swimmer, but a top 50 female swimmer. It's why California, yes California, is piloting a new program to address the success of trans women in school track & field.
 
ZenMode said:
It's not just the 1%. The physical differences that created the differences at the highest levels still exist at lower levels. It's why, among other things, Lia Thomas was the 500th ranked male swimmer, but a top 50 female swimmer. It's why California, yes California, is piloting a new program to address the success of trans women in school track & field.
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Why is it unfair women had to compete against Lia, but totally ok they had to compete against the 49 women ranked above her who also were physically superior to them and Lia?
 
NYCBlueBlood said:
Why is it unfair women had to compete against Lia, but totally ok they had to compete against the 49 women ranked above her who also were physically superior to them and Lia?
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Would you support making all high school, college and pro sports co-ed?
 
ZenMode said:
It's not just the 1%. The physical differences that created the differences at the highest levels still exist at lower levels. It's why, among other things, Lia Thomas was the 500th ranked male swimmer, but a top 50 female swimmer. It's why California, yes California, is piloting a new program to address the success of trans women in school track & field.
Click to expand...
Your examples are so far below the one percent, since you don't seem to understand numbers, I give up, you just keep on being a proud bigot.
 
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