I do want conservatives on here

I mean falcolnjet has been posting the most far out right wing conspiracies from fluoride to probably mole people for 20+ years and I don't think has ever been banned. He does it in a way as not to be a dick. It's those who can't let go of the partisan fan behavior that run into trouble by acting like dicks.
 
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The old ZZL liked folks that would have differing opinions, but didn't like if they stuck to them. That was trolling or contrarianism. But if you were the Alan Colmes type that rolled over when someone gave the favored point of view, you were more than welcome.
 
Kraftyheel89 said:
I despise Trump, the many many Pub politicians who do as well yet cave to the MAGA cult. I am fearful of the militant, christo-fascist, and cult like element of MAGA.
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I consider you an ally. This is so important it trumps every other difference we have. Way to go Krafty!
 
CFordUNC said:
Incredibly well said, and I couldn't agree more. I think the analogy about going to a rival's sports board is completely spot-on. I have never understand the whining and crying that so many conservative posters do about how the board is such a hostile place to them and how the liberals are so mean to them and how they are just so silenced and oppressed. To my knowledge, nobody has ever held a gun to their heads and forced them to read or post on the ZZLP. It's entirely their choice to do so. It would be like me going over to PackPride with 'UNC' in my username and start running my mouth with blatant anti-State posting about how they're a bunch of inbreds. I would be an idiot to not expect hostility and blowback. But if I went to PackPride and tried to have reasonable discussion and debate with them about X's and O's, recruiting, game strategy, etc., and they still treated me with hostility, then I would simply choose to not read or post on PackPride since, you know, I am a grown adult with full agency!

Not one single conservative poster has ever been treated with hostility on the ZZLP for wanting to debate or discuss the finer points and merits of classical conservative philosophy. Not one single one, not ever. Nobody has ever treated any conservative poster poorly because they wanted to debate low taxes, or the flat tax, or border security, or government spending, or social safety net programs, or foreign policy, or the wisdom of spending more on defense than the next ~20 or so countries combined.

But that's not what most of these conservative posters want to be able to do. They want to be able to come and peddle conspiracy theories, or talk about how Kamala Harris is a hoe, or how liberals want to be able to abort newborn babies, or how liberals are pedophile groomers, or how liberals want communism, etc. That's what they want to be able to do- let's all be very, very clear about that. They want to be able to sling shit and not have shit slung back at them. That ain't gonna happen here. There are far too many ultra-intelligent people in this community who aren't going to let that crap fly without replying in kind.

If you go read what's left of the ZZLP on IC, and even the main ZZL, right this moment you can see a bunch of conservative posters STILL whining and crying about the big mean liberals, even though the ZZLP is in its death throes. NOW they're mad that the majority of ZZLP posters have come over here to start a new community independent of IC. Something that I've learned over the last week or two is that I had absolutely, positively NO idea how many conservative/Trumper posters obsessively read the ZZLP without ever posting. That shocked me a bit. But it's really funny to think about those folks on the outside looking in, silently fuming about what was being posted on the ZZLP. I had no idea how many stunted grown ass adults still view the whole through the lenses of high school pettiness.

Anyway, as a former diehard conservative whose own views have been significantly moderated and even liberalized by the batshit insanity that has become the MAGA-fied conservative/Republican movement in America, I completely agree with what Krafty said above. This community openly welcomes diversity of thought, ideology, and viewpoint, and it will be made even better in the coming weeks, months, and years if more people from both sides of the ideological spectrum post up in here.
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I agree with all of this.

Now, will you please choose an avatar. It is very confusing when your and Chile make consecutive posts, and both of you post enough that an avatar is in order. Get on it, will you?
 
gtyellowjacket said:
The old ZZL liked folks that would have differing opinions, but didn't like if they stuck to them. That was trolling or contrarianism. But if you were the Alan Colmes type that rolled over when someone gave the favored point of view, you were more than welcome.
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I've seen that already on this board.

There's a really depressing number of people who, on interacting with a conservative who has strong opinions, immediately resort to calling them a "troll"

It's like they can't even fathom people have different points of view and are sincere in holding them. Granted, a lot of those points of view are incredibly stupid, but still...
 
TarSpiel said:
I've seen that already on this board.

There's a really depressing number of people who, on interacting with a conservative who has strong opinions, immediately resort to calling them a "troll"

It's like they can't even fathom people have different points of view and are sincere in holding them. Granted, a lot of those points of view are incredibly stupid, but still...
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I confess to being uncomfortable with the language of differing "opinions." It seems to me that the problem is when those "opinions" are not supported by truth. Every opinion is not valid.
There are so many examples like that, where folks are committed to things that are untrue, but they feel that their "opinions" deserve respect.
 
grubar said:
Every opinion is not valid.
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I agree with that.

But it doesn't follow that everyone who holds an invalid or unsupported opinion must therefore be a troll.

A lot of people hold opinions because their community of loved ones hold those opinions. They may not even know or care about the issue, but defending the opinions is a proxy for defending their family, community and loved ones.

There's a whole lot of social psychology that go into the formation and espousing of opinions, and a lot of it really has nothing to do with reason, logic or evidence. I think that we're all susceptible to this to one degree or another.
 
grubar said:
I confess to being uncomfortable with the language of differing "opinions." It seems to me that the problem is when those "opinions" are not supported by truth. Every opinion is not valid.
There are so many examples like that, where folks are committed to things that are untrue, but they feel that their "opinions" deserve respect.
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Agree with this. For example, several of the MAGA posters on the other board liked to claim that Democrats want to make it legal to electively abort babies up to the moment of birth. That's an "opinion" that they hold, but not only is it an enormously stupid one, it's very clearly patently false. And it's an opinion that should deservedly be treated with mockery, scorn, and derision.

However, if someone is of the opinion that elective abortions are immoral or unethical, that is an opinion worthy of debate and discussion. It's an opinion with which I'll vehemently disagree every time, but it's one that I'm more than happy to debate.
 
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TarSpiel said:
I agree with that.

But it doesn't follow that everyone who holds an invalid or unsupported opinion must therefore be a troll.

A lot of people hold opinions because their community of loved ones hold those opinions. They may not even know or care about the issue, but defending the opinions is a proxy for defending their family, community and loved ones.

There's a whole lot of social psychology that go into the formation and espousing of opinions, and a lot of it really has nothing to do with reason, logic or evidence. I think that we're all susceptible to this to one degree or another.
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Think this is totally fair, too!
 
PBOHEEL said:
I am a proud conservative and I support the GOP.

I was a member of IC before it became IC. As in the old ACC Boards…

What the ZZL-P became was a joke. Certain posters, who I see are here, were allowed carte blanche on what they were allowed to say to those they disagreed with.

And of course the pile on that followed.

I will watch and see how this board evolves. So far it’s not much different.

Any differing opinions are because of the person having it is a “mouth breathing simpleton..”

That is a real good way to encourage healthy discussions.

It also shows how much many on the left are the exact same as the MAGA cultists but on the different side of the same coin.

Non-ironically it is the same few posters that led to the ZZLP board being shutdown.
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You are correct the other board did become toxic. I know I played my part.
Primarily because I got tired of being called a groomer, by the same people on different threads, because I support LBGTQ people being treated equally. I was often accused of indoctrination because I felt that trans people should have the right to make their own decisions with their family and doctors consent.

Maybe it was too late for the other board, but I realized how I was posting in a way that I didn't want to be known for. I'd always tried to discuss the point and not make it personal, but these past few weeks I admit that I wasn't nice to a few of the conservative posters.

And, considering I was once a conservative, pre trump, I have experience getting it from both sides and understand how frustrating it can be.

Either way, glad you are here, hope that we can have some civil conversations.
 
TarSpiel said:
I've seen that already on this board.

There's a really depressing number of people who, on interacting with a conservative who has strong opinions, immediately resort to calling them a "troll"

It's like they can't even fathom people have different points of view and are sincere in holding them. Granted, a lot of those points of view are incredibly stupid, but still...
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I believe that one has to earn the label of troll.
Many posters on the other board would simply start a thread with a red meat topic and appeared to have no desire for any conversation, which was evident by them moving on and never engaging in the topic to support their "Opinion".

Additionally, if one's "Opinion" is provably wrong, then it's not really in good faith to continue to make the assertion after one has been provided evidence disproving the opinion.
 
grubar said:
I confess to being uncomfortable with the language of differing "opinions." It seems to me that the problem is when those "opinions" are not supported by truth. Every opinion is not valid.
There are so many examples like that, where folks are committed to things that are untrue, but they feel that their "opinions" deserve respect.
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To me it's less what the opinion is and more an honest attempt to defend it.

One poster on the old board believed that men have problems that get ignored by the left and that was a source of the resentment that dominates our politics. As proof he shared a link to a book by a feminist about how raising boys with toxic masculinity is killing them. He saw the title and threw it out there despite the fact that the message of the book completely undercut his entire argument. When questioned he skated and moved onto his next post about how the mean old board hive mind didn't respect opposing opinions. The sad thing was there is a discussion to be had about challenges facing men and boys. He didn't want that discussion though, he just wanted to scold the board.

The problem wasn't that he was a social conservative. The problem was he refused to defend his positions and was dishonest in everything he did. That's why I find balance to be a pointless goal. A perfect representation of the American political spectrum isn't helpful if no one can talk about it.
 
Lando said:
To me it's less what the opinion is and more an honest attempt to defend it.

One poster on the old board believed that men have problems that get ignored by the left and that was a source of the resentment that dominates our politics. As proof he shared a link to a book by a feminist about how raising boys with toxic masculinity is killing them. He saw the title and threw it out there despite the fact that the message of the book completely undercut his entire argument. When questioned he skated and moved onto his next post about how the mean old board hive mind didn't respect opposing opinions. The sad thing was there is a discussion to be had about challenges facing men and boys. He didn't want that discussion though, he just wanted to scold the board.

The problem wasn't that he was a social conservative. The problem was he refused to defend his positions and was dishonest in everything he did. That's why I find balance to be a pointless goal. A perfect representation of the American political spectrum isn't helpful if no one can talk about it.
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I know exactly who you are referring to...

I can recall some of the stupid arguments I've made over the years, but I tried to defend them. This allowed a conversation where others presented information that helped me to evolve and do better at ensuring that there is substance behind my arguments.
 
CFordUNC said:
Incredibly well said, and I couldn't agree more. I think the analogy about going to a rival's sports board is completely spot-on. I have never understand the whining and crying that so many conservative posters do about how the board is such a hostile place to them and how the liberals are so mean to them and how they are just so silenced and oppressed. To my knowledge, nobody has ever held a gun to their heads and forced them to read or post on the ZZLP. It's entirely their choice to do so. It would be like me going over to PackPride with 'UNC' in my username and start running my mouth with blatant anti-State posting about how they're a bunch of inbreds. I would be an idiot to not expect hostility and blowback. But if I went to PackPride and tried to have reasonable discussion and debate with them about X's and O's, recruiting, game strategy, etc., and they still treated me with hostility, then I would simply choose to not read or post on PackPride since, you know, I am a grown adult with full agency!

Not one single conservative poster has ever been treated with hostility on the ZZLP for wanting to debate or discuss the finer points and merits of classical conservative philosophy. Not one single one, not ever. Nobody has ever treated any conservative poster poorly because they wanted to debate low taxes, or the flat tax, or border security, or government spending, or social safety net programs, or foreign policy, or the wisdom of spending more on defense than the next ~20 or so countries combined.

But that's not what most of these conservative posters want to be able to do. They want to be able to come and peddle conspiracy theories, or talk about how Kamala Harris is a hoe, or how liberals want to be able to abort newborn babies, or how liberals are pedophile groomers, or how liberals want communism, etc. That's what they want to be able to do- let's all be very, very clear about that. They want to be able to sling shit and not have shit slung back at them. That ain't gonna happen here. There are far too many ultra-intelligent people in this community who aren't going to let that crap fly without replying in kind.

If you go read what's left of the ZZLP on IC, and even the main ZZL, right this moment you can see a bunch of conservative posters STILL whining and crying about the big mean liberals, even though the ZZLP is in its death throes. NOW they're mad that the majority of ZZLP posters have come over here to start a new community independent of IC. Something that I've learned over the last week or two is that I had absolutely, positively NO idea how many conservative/Trumper posters obsessively read the ZZLP without ever posting. That shocked me a bit. But it's really funny to think about those folks on the outside looking in, silently fuming about what was being posted on the ZZLP. I had no idea how many stunted grown ass adults still view the whole through the lenses of high school pettiness.

Anyway, as a former diehard conservative whose own views have been significantly moderated and even liberalized by the batshit insanity that has become the MAGA-fied conservative/Republican movement in America, I completely agree with what Krafty said above. This community openly welcomes diversity of thought, ideology, and viewpoint, and it will be made even better in the coming weeks, months, and years if more people from both sides of the ideological spectrum post up in here.
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Great post, and it sums up my feelings pretty well about this topic. I will only add that I'm not at all surprised that large numbers of Trumpers were regularly reading the old ZZLP board without ever posting there until the last week or so of the board's existence. I'm also not surprised at all of the resentment and bitterness that's being expressed by Trumpers at the old ZZLP over not feeling "welcome" to post there. And the truth is no one was stopping them from posting - they were just scared to post their views and have them challenged, and they resented the hell out of it. And no one was forcing them to regularly read the IC ZZLP either, or even to acknowledge the board's existence. The fact that so many Trumpers were going out of their way to read the board and get angry is a perfect symbol of the resentment that is one of the base emotions of Trumpism. And there's no doubt that they had a great deal to do with shutting the old ZZLP shut down - if they didn't feel comfortable posting then no one should be able to post there. Take that, libs! Except that now we're all over here and they have no control or influence over what happens to this board. Oh, well.
 
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gtyellowjacket said:
The old ZZL liked folks that would have differing opinions, but didn't like if they stuck to them. That was trolling or contrarianism. But if you were the Alan Colmes type that rolled over when someone gave the favored point of view, you were more than welcome.
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I don’t suffer fools lightly
 
farce said:
I agree with all of this.

Now, will you please choose an avatar. It is very confusing when your and Chile make consecutive posts, and both of you post enough that an avatar is in order. Get on it, will you?
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Huh? I have an avatar. Do you not see it?
 
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