Where do we go from here?

[sringwal]

Funny to hear you still talking about ignorance in a time where people on your side should be doing a little more soul searching about the bubbles you live in and the weird stances your party has locked itself into.

False equivalency.

 

[aGDevil2k]

Isn’t a 3 month supply about the smallest purchase that can be made at Costco?

For the Quaker granola it's lasts like 2 weeks in our house for the 2 bag pack. So I got a whole lot

 

[heelinhell]

Short version - Republicans “feel” like the economy is bad whenever a Dem is President, and feel great when Trump is president, no matter what. Can’t wait for two months from now when 95% of Trump voters suddenly say the economy is great

The economy will suddenly become greatest economy of all time on January 21,2025.

Mark your calendar and have a bottle of Dom Perignon on ice

 

[wmheel1287]

Not to argue any point here, but that’s a really shitty graph that’s difficult to read. As a communications guy who regularly works with statisticians and scientists to make things that are easily understood by lay people…this would be one of my “don’t” examples.

I like to think I'm pretty solid at reading a chart and I have no fucking clue what that one shows or portends to show.

 

[TitanNC]

Presented without further comment besides the fact that the only winning coalition will be less educated on average than the Harris 2024 coalition.

Nice

 

[mpaer]

So "working class" , no college degree folks-you were better off in the massive unemployment, supply chain shortage, pandemic days of Trump?
Am I getting it right here ?

 

[UNCatTech]

Funny to hear you still talking about ignorance in a time where people on your side should be doing a little more soul searching about the bubbles you live in and the weird stances your party has locked itself into.

Which weird stances?

Like the one that every human should be treated equally from a legal and government stand point? That racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc are wrong and people should be able to live their best life?

Like the one that everyone should have the right to practice their religion, but not be allow to force others to?

Please share some of these weird stances?

I think it's a weird stance that one party elected a felon.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

Which weird stances?

Like the one that every human should be treated equally from a legal and government stand point? That racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc are wrong and people should be able to live their best life?

Like the one that everyone should have the right to practice their religion, but not be allow to force others to?

Please share some of these weird stances?

I think it's a weird stance that one party elected a felon.

Top of my head…

That people are just pawns to be placed neatly divided up into groups based on race and gender and appealed to that way via identity politics, instead of trying to solve issues that actually matter to people in 2024.

That men should be able to play women’s sports and you’re a bigot if you think otherwise.

That prisoners should be able to receive taxpayer funded gender transition surgeries [exit polls show this statement by Harris in particular and the Trump ad that highlighted it was very impactful with Latinos and African Americans]

That illegal immigrants are just innocent/helpful members of society that keep our costs down, rather than defining them as the criminals they are.

That young people’s votes can be bought by trying to forgive their student loans, never mind the fact that this completely ignores and pisses off the working class who didn’t go to college and is struggling more than people who have college degrees.

That women should lie to their husbands about who they plan to vote for.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

Then why do you continually comment about his prosecution being solely motivated by partisan feelings?

Furthermore, should partisan motivations even matter if someone did actually break the law? Do we want a society where you can only be prosecuted if those seeking the conviction are of your own political party?

For me, if Biden or Harris or Obama or any other Democrat breaks the law, I want them prosecuted and I'm perfectly happy with that prosecution coming from someone who vehemently hates them for partisan reasons. I don't even care if they are only being prosecuted because of the partisan motivations. If they're guilty, they're guilty.

As someone who lived through a business partner defrauding the federal goverment of millions of dollars and suffering the fallout of that shit, I have ZERO sympathy for people who flaunt the law. He was a very close friend and I sincerely would not care at this point if he got colorectal cancer and spent the last days of his life in absolute agony. As far as I'm concerned, he deserves it.

Fair enough. I believe that Trump was only prosecuted because he upsets the political machine like no other person in modern history. Not because he committed serious crimes.

Honest question for you. Since you believe someone who is guilty of a crime should be prosecuted no matter what. How do you feel about the tens of millions of illegal immigrants that broke the law entering our country? Does this put you on the side of being okay with mass deportation since they all broke the law?

 

[farce©]

For the Quaker granola it's lasts like 2 weeks in our house for the 2 bag pack. So I got a whole lot

Y’all must have some healthy digestive tracts in your house, along with smooth functioning toilets!

 

[rodoheel]

Top of my head…

That people are just pawns to be placed neatly divided up into groups based on race and gender and appealed to that way via identity politics, instead of trying to solve issues that actually matter to people in 2024.

That men should be able to play women’s sports and you’re a bigot if you think otherwise.

That prisoners should be able to receive taxpayer funded gender transition surgeries [exit polls show this statement by Harris in particular and the Trump ad that highlighted it was very impactful with Latinos and African Americans]

That illegal immigrants are just innocent/helpful members of society that keep our costs down, rather than defining them as the criminals they are.

That young people’s votes can be bought by trying to forgive their student loans, never mind the fact that this completely ignores and pisses off the working class who didn’t go to college and is struggling more than people who have college degrees.

That women should lie to their husbands about who they plan to vote for.

"Here is my critique of the Democratic campaign that is not based at all on anything the campaign said or did and is instead based on every Trump attack ad. and bad faith republican talking point."

Political ads work, man. Exhibit A.

Also very "mask off" statement there about undocumented immigrants. The vast majority of undocumented immigrants are, indeed, helpful and productive members of society. But you see every one of them as criminals to be punished. I suppose you also believe Trump's claim that they were emptying out African prisons and South American insane asylums into our country?

 

[farce©]

Fair enough. I believe that Trump was only prosecuted because he upsets the political machine like no other person in modern history. Not because he committed serious crimes.

Honest question for you. Since you believe someone who is guilty of a crime should be prosecuted no matter what. How do you feel about the tens of millions of illegal immigrants that broke the law entering our country? Does this put you on the side of being okay with mass deportation since they all broke the law?

Sure, go get them. But I also advocate for prosecuting those who hire them. You also have to keep in mind that those seeking asylum entered the country legally.

 

[finesse]

Top of my head…

That people are just pawns to be placed neatly divided up into groups based on race and gender and appealed to that way via identity politics, instead of trying to solve issues that actually matter to people in 2024.

That men should be able to play women’s sports and you’re a bigot if you think otherwise.

That prisoners should be able to receive taxpayer funded gender transition surgeries [exit polls show this statement by Harris in particular and the Trump ad that highlighted it was very impactful with Latinos and African Americans]

That illegal immigrants are just innocent/helpful members of society that keep our costs down, rather than defining them as the criminals they are.

That young people’s votes can be bought by trying to forgive their student loans, never mind the fact that this completely ignores and pisses off the working class who didn’t go to college and is struggling more than people who have college degrees.

That women should lie to their husbands about who they plan to vote for.

Now use the inside and think about how petty these are compared to killing women through outlawing abortion.

What is the real criminal rate for immigrants according to anybody who has any kind of legitimate statistics. What is the last wave of immigration that actually damaged America?

Will you ever differentiate immigration and drug trafficking which mostly are done by legals. After all, 5 lbs. of fentanyl is the the equivalent of 125-250 lbs of heroin. It's a lot easier to get it in with legals than facing the extra scrutiny.

 

[heelinhell]

Sure, go get them. But I also advocate for prosecuting those who hire them. You also have to keep in mind that those seeking asylum entered the country legally.

If the mass deportation is implemented ( I have my doubts) then I would support as part of the plan to identify any employer who hired said captured illegal immigrant who will be deported and charge that employer with a felony for each illegal hired with a punishment up to 20 years in prison.

This would deter employers from hiring illegals which in turn would deter illegals from entering our country to seek employment for a better way of life.

 

[heel17]

Presented without further comment besides the fact that the only winning coalition will be less educated on average than the Harris 2024 coalition.

Not to argue any point here, but that’s a really shitty graph that’s difficult to read. As a communications guy who regularly works with statisticians and scientists to make things that are easily understood by lay people…this would be one of my “don’t” examples.

I like to think I'm pretty solid at reading a chart and I have no fucking clue what that one shows or portends to show.

The point is that the Rs have been trending from being the "High-education, High-income" party to the "Low-education, Low-income" party and the dems have done the opposite. Many of the country club and suburban Rs have flipped D while rural whites and now minorities have started to go R. Obviously it isn't a complete picture and political coalitions are and always have been complex and ever shifting but it resonates with me in explaining some of the recent shifts, especially since Trump.

The Ds push policies that are better for the lower left quadrant while bleeding those voters due to shifting cultural and political identities. The Rs meanwhile have historically pushed policies that are at least believed by most voters to be better economically for the upper half of the chart (taxes bad) but have of late been pushing much more populist policies (tariffs) in alignment with the lower left as cover for the oligarchic class continuing to amass wealth and power. I believe the Ds pushing student loan forgiveness is a good example in the opposite direction. This board knows millions (especially Gen X and Millenials) are hamstrung and need help, but it had a lot of play for the Rs as being a bailout for wealthy liberals.

If the coalitions are Rs with the oligarchs and the low-ed, low-income population vs. cosmopolitan middle/upper class and educated voters, there are more of the former than the latter. The Ds MUST find a way to reconnect with the non-MAGA lower left, but the cultural and now policy pull of each party will be very tough to overcome.

 

[UNCatTech]

Top of my head…

That people are just pawns to be placed neatly divided up into groups based on race and gender and appealed to that way via identity politics, instead of trying to solve issues that actually matter to people in 2024.

That men should be able to play women’s sports and you’re a bigot if you think otherwise.

That prisoners should be able to receive taxpayer funded gender transition surgeries [exit polls show this statement by Harris in particular and the Trump ad that highlighted it was very impactful with Latinos and African Americans]

That illegal immigrants are just innocent/helpful members of society that keep our costs down, rather than defining them as the criminals they are.

That young people’s votes can be bought by trying to forgive their student loans, never mind the fact that this completely ignores and pisses off the working class who didn’t go to college and is struggling more than people who have college degrees.

That women should lie to their husbands about who they plan to vote for.

I'll respond to each as I have time but its very clear that these come from trumps statements and your interpretation.

Just start with the last one.

The point wasn't for a woman to lie to their husband. The point was that women have the freedom of thought to make their own choice and not be compelled to vote based off of their husband's position.

This was supported by evangelicals that basically said that their wives were really just a second vote for them as the wife had no choice and had to vote as their husband did.

Do you agree that a woman shouldn't have the right to vote as she wishes?

 

[EyeballKid]

The point is that the Rs have been trending from being the "High-education, High-income" party to the "Low-education, Low-income" party and the dems have done the opposite. Many of the country club and suburban Rs have flipped D while rural whites and now minorities have started to go R. Obviously it isn't a complete picture and political coalitions are and always have been complex and ever shifting but it resonates with me in explaining some of the recent shifts, especially since Trump.

The Ds push policies that are better for the lower left quadrant while bleeding those voters due to shifting cultural and political identities. The Rs meanwhile have historically pushed policies that are at least believed by most voters to be better economically for the upper half of the chart (taxes bad) but have of late been pushing much more populist policies (tariffs) in alignment with the lower left as cover for the oligarchic class continuing to amass wealth and power. I believe the Ds pushing student loan forgiveness is a good example in the opposite direction. This board knows millions (especially Gen X and Millenials) are hamstrung and need help, but it had a lot of play for the Rs as being a bailout for wealthy liberals.

If the coalitions are Rs with the oligarchs and the low-ed, low-income population vs. cosmopolitan middle/upper class and educated voters, there are more of the former than the latter. The Ds MUST find a way to reconnect with the non-MAGA lower left, but the cultural and now policy pull of each party will be very tough to overcome.

I understand all of that.

Rs have a 40-50 year head start. They’ve steadily built and expanded a vast propaganda network targeting working class uneducated people. They appeal to fear and anger, and it works.

This has gotten worse during the social media era, in part with the help of our political enemies like China and Russia. The propaganda network is expansive and incessant, pushed into Facebook and X and YouTube feeds.

There is little Ds can do in the short term to correct course and reach out to lower- and middle-class voters who have limited ability to discern fact from fiction. Media literacy is a huge conundrum.

 

[rodoheel]

Honest question for you. Since you believe someone who is guilty of a crime should be prosecuted no matter what. How do you feel about the tens of millions of illegal immigrants that broke the law entering our country? Does this put you on the side of being okay with mass deportation since they all broke the law?

There are two different questions: did they break the law and, if so, should the punishment be deportation.

This question is obviously very practically and legally difficult. Because any person accused of illegally entering the country is entitled to due process of law. And immigration courts are badly understaffed and underfunded - something Congress tried to make progress towards fixing, but Trump sent down. So convening removal hearings for 12 million people, or however many you think it is, is going to be an absolute logistical nightmare. it's one of the reasons I don't think the Trump admin will actually attempt mass deportation; that was just red meat for the base. And if they do, they will likely try to do it illegally, by denying due process and trying to skip removal hearings or turning them into perfunctory farces.

it is also impossible to make any judgment about "illegal immigrants" on a blanket basis because the circumstances of them entering the country are very different. Many entered the country 5, 10, 20, 30 years ago. Many were brought here against their will. Many were children or babies when they entered. Many entered legally and then remained here beyond when they were authorized, in some instances legitimately not knowing they were not entitled to stay. Many may be in the process of obtaining citizenship. These are individual circumstances that have to be considered and assessed as part of any removal hearing, and there are often not easy answers.

Then, of course, there's the practical reality of deportation. What are we going to do in situations where we decide that parents must be removed but they have minor children who were born here and are US citizens? Are we going to leave them orphaned or force them into foster care? Are we going to forcibly deport lawful American citizens? If the latter, how do we plan to force foreign countries to accept people who are citizens of a different country? And what about the actual cost of deportation? Contrary to what MAGAs seem to think we can't just drop all of these people off at the Mexican border and wave goodbye. We are going to be flying them, and all of their worldly possessions, all over the world, at our own expense. What if they own real property or personal property that can't easily be moved (automobiles, for example) in the US? Are we just going to confiscate it on behalf of the government?

And then of course there's the question of whether doing all of this is going to benefit the rest of us at all. Whatever you think about the net impact of immigrants on the economy, the sheer cost of locating them all, and detaining them all, and holding hearings for them all, and deporting them all, will be immense. And the direct and indirect impacts on the economy of removing millions of people from it will be immediate and immense. We're going to take millions of people who are buying groceries and gas and paying rent and utility bills and working in all sorts of sectors and being charged sales tax and property tax and we're going to turn them into a drain on public resources instead. I find it difficult to conceive how anyone could possibly think this is good policy.

Ultimately I have no problem with continuing the existing process we have for assessing whether people are here legally, though that system is badly in need of reform and extra resources. I have no problem with people who commit crimes and are then found to be here illegally being subject to those processes. What I do have a problem with is devoting massive public resources in trying to find, detain, and deport en masse, regardless of individual circumstance, every single person who ever entered the country illegally.

 

[heel17]

I understand all of that.

Rs have a 40-50 year head start. They’ve steadily built and expanded a vast propaganda network targeting working class uneducated people. They appeal to fear and anger, and it works.

This has gotten worse during the social media era, in part with the help of our political enemies like China and Russia. The propaganda network is expansive and incessant, pushed into Facebook and X and YouTube feeds.

There is little Ds can do in the short term to correct course and reach out to lower- and middle-class voters who have limited ability to discern fact from fiction. Media literacy is a huge conundrum.

Then the way forward is to act and "code" as a moderate or as a "common man" and find an economic message / opponent to go after and ram it home every single day. Obama won on healthcare, opportunity, and jobs while seeming like a cool dude to the millions of voters who barely pay attention.

Honestly I think "weird" worked for a bit for the Dems as it highlighted to the 5-10% of persuadable swing state voters that RFK Jr, JD Vance, Trump, and their clown car is indeed a clown car. Run as the "normal" person who is fighting for the little guy of all stripes.

 

[EyeballKid]

Then the way forward is to act and "code" as a moderate or as a "common man" and find an economic message / opponent to go after and ram it home every single day. Obama won on healthcare, opportunity, and jobs while seeming like a cool dude to the millions of voters who barely pay attention.

Honestly I think "weird" worked for a bit for the Dems as it highlighted to the 5-10% of persuadable swing state voters that RFK Jr, JD Vance, Trump, and their clown car is indeed a clown car. Run as the "normal" person who is fighting for the little guy of all stripes.

Obama was a once-in-a-lifetime communicator. Simply “finding” another of him is an impossible task.