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Where do we go from here?

  • Thread starter Thread starter rodoheel
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stankeylegjones said:
You might be right, but I must say that I do agree with the general message in his comments.
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He made his entire 8 minute long screed in that clip a discussion about how the Democratic Party just lost because of its obsession with identity politics, completely ignoring that the Republican Party just *won* the election **because** it leaned hard into identity politics. He acted as if the Democrats catered to the far left progressive wing of the party when in fact it can be easily argued that by trying to court conservatives and Republicans, the Democrats lost the election by suppressing turnout in its left flank. Does he really expect any intelligent person to believe that the Harris campaign ran a "far left" campaign when they didn't mention the word "transgender" one single solitary time in any campaign speech, and when they spent way more of their time palling around with Liz and Dick Cheney than they did with actual liberal Democrats? He made a remark about how its the *Democrats* who have destroyed education in this country, when virtually every single blue state kicks the ever loving shit out of virtually every single red state in educational outcomes.

As someone who is classically conservative ideologically but who is a firm Democratic voter these days, and will remain so for the foreseeable future until or unless the Republican Party decides to stop trying to recreate 1850's America, I am absolutely, positively on board with the notion that the Democrats need to: 1. learn how to speak to normal people, 2. abandon the academic jargon and speech policing, 3. learn how to fight GOP fire with fire, and 4. learn how to effectively and successfully message its populist policy ideals and demonstrate how Democrats make the average American's life better. Where I completely disagree with Bill Maher, and others with similar messages, is that the Democratic Party is the one that is fundamentally broken. Parties lose elections all the time. Even good parties with good platforms lose elections with frequency. The Democrats didn't lose the election because they are a fundamentally broken party. They lost the election because they got just few too little votes in just a few too many of the wrong places that killed their electoral chances. It happens. The party certainly needs to make some changes, get new leadership, and let the next generation cook. But for Maher and others to act like the Democrats need to completely change their entire identity because of a razor thin election loss in which the opposing presidential candidate won by about 1% and failed to receive a plurality of the votes for his third consecutive time, would be like acting like a basketball team that loses a tossup game 76-75 needs to completely rebuild and reimagine itself.

If the Democratic Party was fundamentally broken, it wouldn't have had such impressive success in so many downballot races across the country. My hope is that the Republicans listen to people like Bill Maher and run around acting and governing as if they won some 1984-esque blowout mandate, instead of winning a 49-48 election. I hope that nobody in the GOP figures out that they won for the same exact reason that every other non-incumbent party in every other democratic country won this year and last.
 
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^ This, exactly. I hate identity politics, period, from both parties. I think identity politics are stupid and divisive. I think that the overwhelming vast majority of Americans- regardless of their race, ethnicity, background, or walk of life- just want to simply be considered "American." But to act like 1: the Democratic Party is the only one of the two parties that employs identity politics, and 2. that the Democratic Party lost *because* of identity politics, is a dumb take.
 
CFordUNC said:
He made his entire 8 minute long screed in that clip a discussion about how the Democratic Party just lost because of its obsession with identity politics, completely ignoring that the Republican Party just *won* the election **because** it leaned hard into identity politics. He acted as if the Democrats catered to the far left progressive wing of the party when in fact it can be easily argued that by trying to court conservatives and Republicans, the Democrats lost the election by suppressing turnout in its left flank. Does he really expect any intelligent person to believe that the Harris campaign ran a "far left" campaign when they didn't mention the word "transgender" one single solitary time in any campaign speech, and when they spent way more of their time palling around with Liz and Dick Cheney than they did with actual liberal Democrats? He made a remark about how its the *Democrats* who have destroyed education in this country, when virtually every single blue state kicks the ever loving shit out of virtually every single red state in educational outcomes.

As someone who is classically conservative ideologically but who is a firm Democratic voter these days, and will remain so for the foreseeable future until or unless the Republican Party decides to stop trying to recreate 1850's America, I am absolutely, positively on board with the notion that the Democrats need to: 1. learn how to speak to normal people, 2. abandon the academic jargon and speech policing, 3. learn how to fight GOP fire with fire, and 4. learn how to effectively and successfully message its populist policy ideals and demonstrate how Democrats make the average American's life better. Where I completely disagree with Bill Maher, and others with similar messages, is that the Democratic Party is the one that is fundamentally broken. Parties lose elections all the time. Even good parties with good platforms lose elections with frequency. The Democrats didn't lose the election because they are a fundamentally broken party. They lost the election because they got just few too little votes in just a few too many of the wrong places that killed their electoral chances. It happens. The party certainly needs to make some changes, get new leadership, and let the next generation cook. But for Maher and others to act like the Democrats need to completely change their entire identity because of a razor thin election loss in which the opposing presidential candidate won by about 1% and failed to receive a plurality of the votes for his third consecutive time, would be like acting like a basketball team that loses a tossup game 76-75 needs to completely rebuild and reimagine itself.

If the Democratic Party was fundamentally broken, it wouldn't have had such impressive success in so many downballot races across the country. My hope is that the Republicans listen to people like Bill Maher and run around acting and governing as if they won some 1984-esque blowout mandate, instead of winning a 49-48 election. I hope that nobody in the GOP figures out that they won for the same exact reason that every other non-incumbent party in every other democratic country won this year and last.
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His stance was/is that the democratic party has focused too heavily on identity politics, to the detriment of losing many who would've voted for them. I agree with this. All while telling those who are struggling to make ends meet to "look at the metrics."

Losing all three levels, to this pos pub party, tells me that what they're doing is not correct and that they need to rethink.
 
Paine said:
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Thanks for posting this. I'm curious to listen how they tackle class. I've always felt like the headwinds of class (low socioeconomic position) are incredibly strong and more difficult to navigate through, and that we need to message those folks, as a united group.
 
stankeylegjones said:
His stance was/is that the democratic party has focused too heavily on identity politics, to the detriment of losing many who would've voted for them. I agree with this. All while telling those who are struggling to make ends meet to "look at the metrics."

Losing all three levels, to this pos pub party, tells me that what they're doing is not correct and that they need to rethink.
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Right, that’s why his stance is disagreeable to me: the Democratic presidential ticket actually did NOT focus on identity politics at all: never once mentioned the transgender issue, never once mentioned Harris being the first female president, never once mentioned Harris being the first Black woman president, etc. And “identity politics” certainly did not prevent Democratic candidates from doing really well across the country. I will totally buy the notion that Democrats as a whole have focused too much on identity politics over the last decade or so- I will not, however, buy the notion that it was identity politics that lost them this election, considering 1. The presidential ticket did not engage in such, 2. Democrats down ballot did very well, especially in swing states, and 3. The Republican ticket actively ran an entire campaign predicated upon their own identity politics. It’s why it’s really difficult to take Bill Maher seriously on this, because the real answer as to why the Democrats lost the election is way, way simpler: they were the incumbent party in an anti-incumbent moment worldwide. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now, again, I absolutely do detest identity politics. I detest it on both sides of the ideological spectrum. But it isn’t why the Democrats lost this election 49-48.
 
stankeylegjones said:
Thanks for posting this. I'm curious to listen how they tackle class. I've always felt like the headwinds of class (low socioeconomic position) are incredibly strong and more difficult to navigate through, and that we need to message those folks, as a united group.
Click to expand...
Let me know what you think. I’d never heard of Smarsh prior to this. I think she did a good job of laying out how I generally feel too.
 
CFordUNC said:
Right, that’s why his stance is disagreeable to me: the Democratic presidential ticket actually did NOT focus on identity politics at all: never once mentioned the transgender issue, never once mentioned Harris being the first female president, never once mentioned Harris being the first Black woman president, etc. And “identity politics” certainly did not prevent Democratic candidates from doing really well across the country. I will totally buy the notion that Democrats as a whole have focused too much on identity politics over the last decade or so- I will not, however, buy the notion that it was identity politics that lost them this election, considering 1. The presidential ticket did not engage in such, 2. Democrats down ballot did very well, especially in swing states, and 3. The Republican ticket actively ran an entire campaign predicated upon their own identity politics. It’s why it’s really difficult to take Bill Maher seriously on this, because the real answer as to why the Democrats lost the election is way, way simpler: they were the incumbent party in an anti-incumbent moment worldwide. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now, again, I absolutely do detest identity politics. I detest it on both sides of the ideological spectrum. But it isn’t why the Democrats lost this election 49-48.
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What the Democrats have had a problem with, and the propaganda network of the right is to blame for this and i don’t know how to combat it, is the large disconnect from what Democrat policies and priorities are actually focused on and what people “feel” they are focused on. It’s pretty impossible to win a campaign when the gold toilet shitting racist narcissist focused on oligarchy is deemed a working class hero ignoring identity politics
 
uncjhodges said:
What the Democrats have had a problem with, and the propaganda network of the right is to blame for this and i don’t know how to combat it, is the large disconnect from what Democrat policies and priorities are actually focused on and what people “feel” they are focused on. It’s pretty impossible to win a campaign when the gold toilet shitting racist narcissist focused on oligarchy is deemed a working class hero ignoring identity politics
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The propaganda on the right isn't the major problem. It was the acquiescense of the MSM in leaving them unchallenged that was more damaging. They decided that the story was in covering what people were saying and stroking their egos rather than challenging their knowledge by covering the actual news. You could tell about two weeks before the election when they realized what they had done and started CYA operations full blast. Now they can tell us how the Democrats got it wrong.
 
CFordUNC said:
Right, that’s why his stance is disagreeable to me: the Democratic presidential ticket actually did NOT focus on identity politics at all: never once mentioned the transgender issue, never once mentioned Harris being the first female president, never once mentioned Harris being the first Black woman president, etc. And “identity politics” certainly did not prevent Democratic candidates from doing really well across the country. I will totally buy the notion that Democrats as a whole have focused too much on identity politics over the last decade or so- I will not, however, buy the notion that it was identity politics that lost them this election, considering 1. The presidential ticket did not engage in such, 2. Democrats down ballot did very well, especially in swing states, and 3. The Republican ticket actively ran an entire campaign predicated upon their own identity politics. It’s why it’s really difficult to take Bill Maher seriously on this, because the real answer as to why the Democrats lost the election is way, way simpler: they were the incumbent party in an anti-incumbent moment worldwide. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now, again, I absolutely do detest identity politics. I detest it on both sides of the ideological spectrum. But it isn’t why the Democrats lost this election 49-48.
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I think his belief is somewhat in line with this. That democrats have been (seemingly) ignoring the working class’ suffering around financial crisis. And to make matters worse, it seems that their response to such cries for help is, “look at those metrics.” The jokes mixed in are for entertainment purposes.
 
Paine said:
Let me know what you think. I’d never heard of Smarsh prior to this. I think she did a good job of laying out how I generally feel too.
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I thought it was spot on. Stewart gets it, and me, in my opinion. I agree, she lays it out exactly how I feel too, confirmation bias or not. We’d do a much better job in elections by not (appearing) to lose focus on class struggle.
 
stankeylegjones said:
I thought it was spot on. Stewart gets it, and me, in my opinion. I agree, she lays it out exactly how I feel too, confirmation bias or not. We’d do a much better job in elections by not (appearing) to lose focus on class struggle.
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It seemed to click for Stewart during the interview as well. I hope enough people “get it” in the next few months so that we can move in the right direction
 
stankeylegjones said:
I think his belief is somewhat in line with this. That democrats have been (seemingly) ignoring the working class’ suffering around financial crisis. And to make matters worse, it seems that their response to such cries for help is, “look at those metrics.” The jokes mixed in are for entertainment purposes.
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Nope.

In a nutshell, Democrats have focused on job-training and other efforts to help steelworkers, coal miners, textile workers, and other low-skill factory or mining workers move into other jobs.

Trump and the Trumplicans lie to these workers and say, “We’re bringing back your jobs! Drill, baby, drill! We’ll unleash American energy production (ignoring that it’s at an all-time high)! Look at those Democrats wanting to let men compete in women’s sports and use women’s bathrooms! Open borders! Open borders! Open borders!”

How is that big factory in rural Wisconsin doing? Trump was at the ground-breaking.

How many thousands are employed there today?
 
finesse said:
The propaganda on the right isn't the major problem. It was the acquiescense of the MSM in leaving them unchallenged that was more damaging. They decided that the story was in covering what people were saying and stroking their egos rather than challenging their knowledge by covering the actual news. You could tell about two weeks before the election when they realized what they had done and started CYA operations full blast. Now they can tell us how the Democrats got it wrong.
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well i think the propaganda is the long term issue, but the msm loves adopting republican framing and you’re right, the tone shift in the last 2 weeks was drastic. like, o shit, this idiot is going to win
 
stankeylegjones said:
I think his belief is somewhat in line with this. That democrats have been (seemingly) ignoring the working class’ suffering around financial crisis. And to make matters worse, it seems that their response to such cries for help is, “look at those metrics.” The jokes mixed in are for entertainment purposes.
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Oh yeah, I hear you. Really appreciate the back-and-forth on this. My thing is that if the Democrats are guilty of anything as it pertains to the working class, it’s the abject failure of the party to successfully combat Republican misinformation and breakthrough the noise. “Look at those metrics” works on people like me, because I look at the metrics already and know that, historically Democratic presidential administrations are good for the economy and historically Republican president to administrations cause economic recessions. I also look at the metrics and the policy proposals of the two parties and understand that Democratic proposals are significantly better for working class and middle-class families than Republican proposals. But all of that is for naught because Democrats do a miserably poor job of actually helping low information voters to see and understand.

Republicans want to cut taxes for the wealthiest individuals and corporations. Democrats want those wealthiest individuals and corporations to pay their fair share. Republican tax cuts increase the tax burden on the middle class. Democratic tax policy proposals reduce the tax burden on the middle class. Democratic economic proposals include child tax credits for working class and middle-class families; Republican economic proposals snatch those away. Democratic economic proposals include subsidies for childcare for working class and middle-class families, universal paid maternity leave, subsidies for diapers and food for working class families, etc. The most recent Democratic presidential ticket proposed a $25,000 subsidy for down payments for qualified first time homebuyers. Democratic economic proposals include bolstered benefits for veterans, the disabled, and the elderly; republicans openly discussed slashing Social Security, Medicare, and veterans benefits. Nobody with a shred of honor, integrity, or decency can say that the Democratic Party doesn’t at least try to help working class and middle-class families, or that the Republican party is better for anyone other than the top 1%.

The magic of the GOP is its ability to convince Republican voters who have always been and will always be solidly middle-class, never to be a beneficiary of any Republican tax policy, that they are fighting for the common man. Look no further than the Republican voters we have on this very board for proof.
 
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