Where do we go from here?

[superrific]

lose focus on class struggle.

Using the phrase class struggle is death. There's no worse way to attract support than using that phrase. Like, don't use it ever. Nothing good can come of it.

If you want to say focus on social class, fine. Focus on working Americans? Fine, I guess. Class struggle is the original "defund the police."

 

[wmheel1287]

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/11/16/sherrod-brown-democrats-00189956

While I like and respect Sherrod Brown. If we collected $1 for every time he proclaimed his own virtue in that interview, we could solve the national debt.

 

[superrific]

I think his belief is somewhat in line with this. That democrats have been (seemingly) ignoring the working class’ suffering around financial crisis. And to make matters worse, it seems that their response to such cries for help is, “look at those metrics.” The jokes mixed in are for entertainment purposes.

The reason the metrics matter is that they help sort out how much of the "economic struggle" is real.

Again, you guys tiptoe around the virulent racism we just saw. It's the same racism that has characterized the white working class for a very long time, but more potent.

The problem, in a nutshell, is that Dems can't win without black voters. They have to be a visible part of the coalition. Then a considerably large % of white working class see that and think, "the Dems aren't for me." It's not because the Dems are elitist. It's because they are seen as the party of minorities. This isn't really a matter of reasonable dispute, except maybe on the margins. The sociological evidence pointing to race as the fundamental appeal of Trumpism is overwhelming. Trump courts white supremacists and the GOP base doesn't skip a beat. Why do you think that is? Because white supremacy is a feature for some, and not really a bug for the others.

Like, Sherrod Brown is still talking about NAFTA, and he thinks the concerns are economic? Ohio loses as many jobs to Alabama than to Mexico. Gee, I wonder why the former is deemed OK and the latter is a grave sin. The Dems could run on repealing the right-to-work provisions of the Taft Hartley Act. Will it make a difference? I don't know. Michigan Dems didn't get any credit for ending right to work in Michigan.

I don't want to prejudge further analysis. Maybe we will see that the economic factors did loom large. But so far, there is just not much evidence that Trump voters are responding to economic hardship as opposed to bigotry. It's only polls, and people don't always answer honestly. For one thing, exit polls ask voters to choose from a menu of choices. None of the choices are "black and brown people are screwing me over."

 

[sringwal]

It wasn't for optics.

All right! Now we can have a discussion.

1. Politics plays a role in everything the president does, almost by definition. If you took me to be saying that politics and optics were completely irrelevant, then you misunderstood. Maybe I wasn't clear about my position.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Nope.

In a nutshell, Democrats have focused on job-training and other efforts to help steelworkers, coal miners, textile workers, and other low-skill factory or mining workers move into other jobs.

Trump and the Trumplicans lie to these workers and say, “We’re bringing back your jobs! Drill, baby, drill! We’ll unleash American energy production (ignoring that it’s at an all-time high)! Look at those Democrats wanting to let men compete in women’s sports and use women’s bathrooms! Open borders! Open borders! Open borders!”

How is that big factory in rural Wisconsin doing? Trump was at the ground-breaking.

How many thousands are employed there today?

Oh, he is definitely lying to them. And, sadly, it's going to get worse.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Oh yeah, I hear you. Really appreciate the back-and-forth on this. My thing is that if the Democrats are guilty of anything as it pertains to the working class, it’s the abject failure of the party to successfully combat Republican misinformation and breakthrough the noise. “Look at those metrics” works on people like me, because I look at the metrics already and know that, historically Democratic presidential administrations are good for the economy and historically Republican president to administrations cause economic recessions. I also look at the metrics and the policy proposals of the two parties and understand that Democratic proposals are significantly better for working class and middle-class families than Republican proposals. But all of that is for naught because Democrats do a miserably poor job of actually helping low information voters to see and understand.

Republicans want to cut taxes for the wealthiest individuals and corporations. Democrats want those wealthiest individuals and corporations to pay their fair share. Republican tax cuts increase the tax burden on the middle class. Democratic tax policy proposals reduce the tax burden on the middle class. Democratic economic proposals include child tax credits for working class and middle-class families; Republican economic proposals snatch those away. Democratic economic proposals include subsidies for childcare for working class and middle-class families, universal paid maternity leave, subsidies for diapers and food for working class families, etc. The most recent Democratic presidential ticket proposed a $25,000 subsidy for down payments for qualified first time homebuyers. Democratic economic proposals include bolstered benefits for veterans, the disabled, and the elderly; republicans openly discussed slashing Social Security, Medicare, and veterans benefits. Nobody with a shred of honor, integrity, or decency can say that the Democratic Party doesn’t at least try to help working class and middle-class families, or that the Republican party is better for anyone other than the top 1%.

The magic of the GOP is its ability to convince Republican voters who have always been and will always be solidly middle-class, never to be a beneficiary of any Republican tax policy, that they are fighting for the common man. Look no further than the Republican voters we have on this very board for proof.

I agree with a lot of this. I guess I see where some are coming from. In that, given a choice between voting for what (you think) is status quo and having what you had, or voting for a shot-in-the-dark and a hope for a better economic situation, it's hard to fault someone for taking the shot. What's sad is that, due to their struggles, they can't see that Trump is only going to make it worse for them. But, when you are grinding just to make it to the bottom, you sometimes make rash, wrong, decisions. For many, voting for Kamala is a guaranteed four more years of struggles, in their mind. And that is amplified when they're told to just look at how great the economy is doing right now. They feel left out. They feel like democrats are more worried about things other than them. Maybe I'm misreading what I'm hearing and seeing, maybe John Stewart is too, along with Maher, and others. I've been wrong many times before, and will be wrong in the future, but this is what I'm feeling now.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Using the phrase class struggle is death. There's no worse way to attract support than using that phrase. Like, don't use it ever. Nothing good can come of it.

If you want to say focus on social class, fine. Focus on working Americans? Fine, I guess. Class struggle is the original "defund the police."

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[stankeylegjones]

The reason the metrics matter is that they help sort out how much of the "economic struggle" is real.

Again, you guys tiptoe around the virulent racism we just saw. It's the same racism that has characterized the white working class for a very long time, but more potent.

The problem, in a nutshell, is that Dems can't win without black voters. They have to be a visible part of the coalition. Then a considerably large % of white working class see that and think, "the Dems aren't for me." It's not because the Dems are elitist. It's because they are seen as the party of minorities. This isn't really a matter of reasonable dispute, except maybe on the margins. The sociological evidence pointing to race as the fundamental appeal of Trumpism is overwhelming. Trump courts white supremacists and the GOP base doesn't skip a beat. Why do you think that is? Because white supremacy is a feature for some, and not really a bug for the others.

Like, Sherrod Brown is still talking about NAFTA, and he thinks the concerns are economic? Ohio loses as many jobs to Alabama than to Mexico. Gee, I wonder why the former is deemed OK and the latter is a grave sin. The Dems could run on repealing the right-to-work provisions of the Taft Hartley Act. Will it make a difference? I don't know. Michigan Dems didn't get any credit for ending right to work in Michigan.

I don't want to prejudge further analysis. Maybe we will see that the economic factors did loom large. But so far, there is just not much evidence that Trump voters are responding to economic hardship as opposed to bigotry. It's only polls, and people don't always answer honestly. For one thing, exit polls ask voters to choose from a menu of choices. None of the choices are "black and brown people are screwing me over."

Note, I said "class." I'm not strictly speaking about white folks. I'm talking about BIPOC folks, white folks, everyone who's struggling right now. If you prefer, "class identity." There is a commonality that everyone who's struggled to put food on the table has, and understands - survival and dreams of not having to decide between food, heat, diapers, or rent.

 

[CFordUNC]

I agree with a lot of this. I guess I see where some are coming from. In that, given a choice between voting for what (you think) is status quo and having what you had, or voting for a shot-in-the-dark and a hope for a better economic situation, it's hard to fault someone for taking the shot. What's sad is that, due to their struggles, they can't see that Trump is only going to make it worse for them. But, when you are grinding just to make it to the bottom, you sometimes make rash, wrong, decisions. For many, voting for Kamala is a guaranteed four more years of struggles, in their mind. And that is amplified when they're told to just look at how great the economy is doing right now. They feel left out. They feel like democrats are more worried about things other than them. Maybe I'm misreading what I'm hearing and seeing, maybe John Stewart is too, along with Maher, and others. I've been wrong many times before, and will be wrong in the future, but this is what I'm feeling now.

Totally good points, for sure. I appreciate your perspective!

 

[Zoo_View]

Note, I said "class." I'm not strictly speaking about white folks. I'm talking about BIPOC folks, white folks, everyone who's struggling right now. If you prefer, "class identity." There is a commonality that everyone who's struggled to put food on the table has, and understands - survival and dreams of not having to decide between food, heat, diapers, or rent.

Pretty certain the last time working class whites formed a coalition with black Americans was in North Carolina prior to the Wilmington Coup and Massacre in 1898.

Jim Crow put an end to that nonsense.

Bussing in the ‘70’s, Reagan Democrats, and similar dog whistles to the white working class (see “open borders, open borders, open borders”) have appealed to racism and not economic class.

Let me know when working class whites align with blacks and Latinos on economic issues.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Totally good points, for sure. I appreciate your perspective!

The feeling is mutual! Thank you for spending your time, offering me good food for thought.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Pretty certain the last time working class whites formed a coalition with black Americans was in North Carolina prior to the Wilmington Coup and Massacre in 1898.

Jim Crow put an end to that nonsense.

Bussing in the ‘70’s, Reagan Democrats, and similar dog whistles to the white working class (see “open borders, open borders, open borders”) have appealed to racism and not economic class.

Let me know when working class whites align with blacks and Latinos on economic issues.

There are certain feelings that come with struggling to make ends meet that those who've gone through it, or are going through it, can identify with. It is a common thread in their lives, and a thread that affects everyone who has had to struggle. This is not to say that previous admin haven't focused on race when trying to ease these struggles in certain groups. And, to be clear, that is not what I am saying, at all. Neither is that what folks who I tend to align with on this issue are calling for. I'm talking about symptoms here, not treatment. I understand that many want to simply chalk up the loss to racism and misogyny, probably because it's easier to believe in that as the cause instead of actually looking inwards and analyzing (mis)actions.

Maybe I'm completely missing the plot here, but it does seem that more folks are coming around to this. Maybe we are all just missing the plot.

 

[Zoo_View]

There are certain feelings that come with struggling to make ends meet that those who've gone through it, or are going through it, can identify with. It is a common thread in their lives, and a thread that affects everyone who has had to struggle. This is not to say that previous admin haven't focused on race when trying to ease these struggles in certain groups. And, to be clear, that is not what I am saying, at all. Neither is that what folks who I tend to align with on this issue are calling for. I'm talking about symptoms here, not treatment. I understand that many want to simply chalk up the loss to racism and misogyny, probably because it's easier to believe in that as the cause instead of actually looking inwards and analyzing (mis)actions.

Maybe I'm completely missing the plot here, but it does seem that more folks are coming around to this. Maybe we are all just missing the plot.

For decades a significant percentage of the white working class has voted for the GOP.

They haven’t done so for economic reasons.

 

[wmheel1287]

If the theory that disaffected working class votes went to Trump simply because they wanted a shot in the dark is correct, then I see no real reason to do much other than wait. We all know this admin is going to be an unmitigated disaster for those folks.

 

[stankeylegjones]

If the theory that disaffected working class votes went to Trump simply because they wanted a shot in the dark is correct, then I see no real reason to do much other than wait. We all know this admin is going to be an unmitigated disaster for those folks.

You might be right, because this is going to be a shit-show.

 

[grimes70]

My one and only post re what went wrong.

Biden apponting Garland AG.

 

[TitanNC]

This is from Adam Lucas’ article after the AU basketball game. Coach Davis is discussing Cadeau’s impact.

I told the team after this game that there are two different kinds of leaders," Hubert Davis said. "There are transactional leaders and transformational leaders. A transactional leader brings will, want-to, attention to detail, enthusiasm and effort, but it is dependent on what they might get from it. It's about getting their shots or their playing time or their notoriety.

"A transformational leader brings that same will and want-to, that same attention to detail and enthusiasm and effort, but it's not dependent on what is happening to them. A transformational leader just genuinely does it without regard for himself. That's Elliot. It doesn't matter if he's scoring or even if he's playing. He's always cheering and celebrating the success of others."

Our country desperately needs a transformational leader as POTUS. Maybe we will get it 4 years from now.

 

[CFordUNC]

 

[lawtig02]

Eh. Biden was about 20 years older than would have been ideal but I really don’t think things would have turned out much differently if he’d been more of a crusader. From an economic perspective, the last four years will defined by the principle that people credit themselves for good things that happen (wage gains, more jobs, etc.), and blame the government for bad things that happen (higher prices). I really think it’s about that simple.

 

[CFordUNC]

Eh. Biden was about 20 years older than would have been ideal but I really don’t think things would have turned out much differently if he’d been more of a crusader. From an economic perspective, the last four years will defined by the principle that people credit themselves for good things that happen (wage gains, more jobs, etc.), and blame the government for bad things that happen (higher prices). I really think it’s about that simple.

Yeah, you might be right. It might really be just that simple. Maddeningly so, in fact.