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I guess because I lack discipline and depth of study I'm stuck with some unconventional viewpoints. When I look at the last 70 years, so much of this is that we might be living in the teething pains of the most transitional period in history. We are fighting the ending of colonialism and imperialism, the rise of technology and the growth of the information age and everybody is scared as hell.
Yeah, it's good that you have those unconventional viewpoints, and good that you bring them here. Don't apologize. You are an intelligent, informed person with a lot to offer. You're not an academic. The world doesn't really need more academics. We need more carpenters.
 
I guess because I lack discipline and depth of study I'm stuck with some unconventional viewpoints. When I look at the last 70 years, so much of this is that we might be living in the teething pains of the most transitional period in history. We are fighting the ending of colonialism and imperialism, the rise of technology and the growth of the information age and everybody is scared as hell.

Most of the world's trouble spots are caused by either the abuses of colonialism ,how it ended or both. The way the countries were divided had horrific consequences and the way the colonies were never prepared to govern themselves maybe worse.

The current social unrest seems like the same tactics of the pitting the disadvantaged elements of society against each other in times of great income and power disparities which is kind of a recurring theme. It's riding the back of the civil rights, women's rights, LBGT rights movements. There are real problems for the working class but the one I haven't seen discussed much is that there is a lessening need for them. The jobs that you can make a living in with a high school education alone are rapidly decreasing. You, at least, have to be able to learn how to operate some sort of equipment. The 50s aren't coming back even if women and blacks are excluded from competition again.

I think it's more about fear and insecurity than anything else and how you handle it. We seem to have those that, throughout my life, tried to limit the whole concept of equality of opportunity and influence on our nation in every way possible, with little regard to tradition or means. We have others who think the more we know, the more sources we look at, and the more opinions we get, the better chance we have of doing the right thing. Hell, we might even get to 50/50. I think the type person you are is formed before you are even aware of politics in any real sense.
Man, you sound like a leftist to me lol.
 
Agree. In my view, this is the essence of liberalism and most other left-of-center perspectives. As I say, we're not liberal because it's easy; we're liberal because we are empathetic, and the politics of empathy are inherently difficult. And this is what we must always remember. I mean, it's not true for Stalinists or Maoists but those are like 0.01% of the population at this point. There are also certain race warriors who I'm skeptical of in this respect, but again, 99% of the white straight liberals are here for the same reason.

And this, by the way, is one reason that I react as I do to the careless tossing around of words like "neoliberal." It's a disparaging term, designed to alienate or marginalize a wing of our coalition. Maybe that wing is too powerful and needs to be taken down. Maybe the policies described (which are usually Pub policies opposed by the so-called "neoliberal" Dems) are not wise.

But we must remember that most of the "neoliberals" on the Dem/liberal side (if it is actually bipartisan) share our same instinct toward humanity. They are good people. They need to be part of our coalition too. I used to work for a lawyer who was fairly close to Bill Clinton. He said that both Clintons were really caring people, who sometimes made themselves appear less good when publicly triangulating. He told me a story from Bill's trip to Africa, which was a HUGE deal. Remember those crowds Obama got in Europe? Bill got bigger ones in Africa.

Anyway, at one event in Uganda I think, Bill took the stage and the crowd surged forward. As happens too often, the people in the very front started to get trampled a little bit. Bill jumped down from his podium down to the front of the stage to help people, and was about to go into the crowd before Secret Service basically tackled him and pulled him away. That's Bill's instinct. At bottom, he wants to help people. That's why he's a Dem. Note that my boss did not address any of the sexual stuff and I didn't ask. It was an acceptable omission given the context, but obviously it does at least qualify the "Bill is a good guy" thesis, though it's never been clear just what % of the accusations were grounded in, well, anything.
Yeah, I get that. I think Bill’s electoral success was much more about his roots and vibe than his triangulation, which is what really frustrates me about him.

I know we (leftists) toss neoliberal around a lot, but that’s because it is a useful stand in for a certain kind of politics that has, in our eyes, been throughly discredited abroad and at home. Some people are overly broad with their accusations though.

There a class of Democrats who looked at Clinton and said: he triangulated and won, so that’s what we must do. It worked for some and not others at the time. It worked for Bill because of other reasons like I stated above.

This also fuels my anxiety about the exact same group of people taking away the wrong lessons from Harris’ loss. Some of them are actually the exact same people, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
 
Man, you sound like a leftist to me lol.
I probably am but, trust me, it's purely by instinct. I had a subscription to the Nation for a couple of years in the 90s. It was insightful and informative because they were covering the intertwinement of the media at the time but it was just tedious to read.
 
Yeah, I get that. I think Bill’s electoral success was much more about his roots and vibe than his triangulation, which is what really frustrates me about him.

I know we (leftists) toss neoliberal around a lot, but that’s because it is a useful stand in for a certain kind of politics that has, in our eyes, been throughly discredited abroad and at home. Some people are overly broad with their accusations though.

There a class of Democrats who looked at Clinton and said: he triangulated and won, so that’s what we must do. It worked for some and not others at the time. It worked for Bill because of other reasons like I stated above.

This also fuels my anxiety about the exact same group of people taking away the wrong lessons from Harris’ loss. Some of them are actually the exact same people, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
I think the problem with neoliberal theory is that it ends up pinning blame on Dems for things they opposed. Like, we often hear about what neoliberalism did to America from 1980-2000. That makes no sense. Reagan/Bush administrations were in control for most of that period; they did a whole bunch of stuff that liberals hated at the time, still hate, and have always opposed. Then Clinton came in and undid a lot of that, opposed even more, and then did a few things that were sort of similar. That doesn't make him a continuation of Reagan!

The problem with your second sentence is that we can't see counterfactuals. You say that his electoral success was more about vibes and roots, which might be true -- but we don't know if he would have messed that up or lost those advantages without triangulating. Right? We can't see what history doesn't make visible, but that doesn't mean it never existed.
 
Yeah, it's good that you have those unconventional viewpoints, and good that you bring them here. Don't apologize. You are an intelligent, informed person with a lot to offer. You're not an academic. The world doesn't really need more academics. We need more carpenters.
I wasn't apologizing. Just acknowledging certain limitations. I am not now or ever going to be shy about giving an opinion. I just as soon it be clear, though that any expertise is in regards to carpentry and, maybe, bridge.
 
I wasn't apologizing. Just acknowledging certain limitations. I am not now or ever going to be shy about giving an opinion. I just as soon it be clear, though that any expertise is in regards to carpentry and, maybe, bridge.
I am 100% on board with that. We all have limitations and we should respect them, and also respect people who are working within good faith within their limitations. There are lots of types of limitations; most of us have some; and solidarity is all about coming together despite our limitations and trying to create a better world.
 
I think the problem with neoliberal theory is that it ends up pinning blame on Dems for things they opposed. Like, we often hear about what neoliberalism did to America from 1980-2000. That makes no sense. Reagan/Bush administrations were in control for most of that period; they did a whole bunch of stuff that liberals hated at the time, still hate, and have always opposed. Then Clinton came in and undid a lot of that, opposed even more, and then did a few things that were sort of similar. That doesn't make him a continuation of Reagan!

The problem with your second sentence is that we can't see counterfactuals. You say that his electoral success was more about vibes and roots, which might be true -- but we don't know if he would have messed that up or lost those advantages without triangulating. Right? We can't see what history doesn't make visible, but that doesn't mean it never existed.
A lot of leftists would also call Bush and Reagan neoliberals though. I think we’ve talked about this before. Americans love to bastardize political terms, and American leftists are no less guilty. I think Reagan, Bush, Carter, and Clinton all share the neoliberal moniker. Not equally, of course.

Neoliberal has come to be more associated with Democrats in American parlance, mostly because there are still a lot of Democrats who cling to this ideology and are currently elected officials. The Republican Party has moved away from it, mostly.
 
A lot of leftists would also call Bush and Reagan neoliberals though. I think we’ve talked about this before. Americans love to bastardize political terms, and American leftists are no less guilty. I think Reagan, Bush, Carter, and Clinton all share the neoliberal moniker. Not equally, of course.
Right. That's the problem with neoliberalism as a term. If you're putting those different administrations under the same rubric, one has to question how helpful the rubric is. I get that there can be different characterizations at different level of generality and those are sometimes useful; for instance, I think it's correct to call Stalin and Hitler totalitarians even though their ideologies were opposites in many ways. In that case, the general terminology reveals a truth that can get lost in details. But the danger -- and the one realized with neoliberal, I think -- is that important distinctions can be glossed over, and a relentless focus on similarity can obscure the differences that are far more impactful.

But you're right that we don't need to talk about this any further on this thread.
 
A lot of leftists would also call Bush and Reagan neoliberals though. I think we’ve talked about this before. Americans love to bastardize political terms, and American leftists are no less guilty. I think Reagan, Bush, Carter, and Clinton all share the neoliberal moniker. Not equally, of course.

Neoliberal has come to be more associated with Democrats in American parlance, mostly because there are still a lot of Democrats who cling to this ideology and are currently elected officials. The Republican Party has moved away from it, mostly.
Anyone who terms those administrations as varying levels of being the same anything is dipshit dumb in their approach. I don't know how to say that any less bluntly.
 
Anyone who terms those administrations as varying levels of being the same anything is dipshit dumb in their approach. I don't know how to say that any less bluntly.
What you’re saying is ahistorical. It’s not “varying levels of being the same”, it’s that they shared a neoliberal framework when it came to their economic policies. No one is saying that all of their policies were the same.

Unless you’re calling every serious political theorist of the last 30 years some years “dipshit dumb.”

 
Unless you’re calling every serious political theorist of the last 30 years some years “dipshit dumb.”
WTF? "Every single serious political theorist?" Cass Sunstein has this to say:


If you are specifically referring to US politics, then the "neoliberal framework" common to Reagan and Clinton consists almost entirely of the beliefs that a) well-structured markets promote prosperity and can process some types of information efficiently; and b) that cost-benefit analysis is good. Both beliefs are backed by considerably more evidence and much sounder theory than their opposites.

Saying that Reagan and Clinton share a framework is kind of like saying that Bacot's game shares a framework with RJ's game, in that they are both limited by gravity.

The biggest problem with "neoliberalism" as a concept is that it effaces the extremely important distinctions between our two major parties, which then leads to people who believe in that uniparty BS and vote for Nader or Stein or West or uncommitted. Whatever you think about its truth, it's not helpful at all.
 
WTF? "Every single serious political theorist?" Cass Sunstein has this to say:


If you are specifically referring to US politics, then the "neoliberal framework" common to Reagan and Clinton consists almost entirely of the beliefs that a) well-structured markets promote prosperity and can process some types of information efficiently; and b) that cost-benefit analysis is good. Both beliefs are backed by considerably more evidence and much sounder theory than their opposites.

Saying that Reagan and Clinton share a framework is kind of like saying that Bacot's game shares a framework with RJ's game, in that they are both limited by gravity.

The biggest problem with "neoliberalism" as a concept is that it effaces the extremely important distinctions between our two major parties, which then leads to people who believe in that uniparty BS and vote for Nader or Stein or West or uncommitted. Whatever you think about its truth, it's not helpful at all.
Look, I really don’t care. The term neoliberal has been used to describe what I’m describing by historians for a long time. Words mean things whether we like it or not. I’m going to continue to use neoliberal to describe neoliberal economics.

We all know there are important distinctions between the parties. It’s juvenile to not be able to acknowledge their similarities.

I also don’t really see how the article you linked is relevant at all to this discussion. Liberalism and neoliberalism are distinct.

 
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Look, I really don’t care. The term neoliberal has been used to describe what I’m describing by historians for a long time. Words mean things whether we like it or not. I’m going to continue to use neoliberal to describe neoliberal economics.

We all know there are important distinctions between the parties. It’s juvenile to not be able to acknowledge their similarities.

I also don’t really see how the article you linked is relevant at all to this discussion. Liberalism and neoliberalism are distinct.

Right. And Sunstein provides a non-caricatured view of liberalism, which includes acknowledgement of similarities between it and the right and the left where appropriate.

Whatever, we can save it.
 
Right. And Sunstein provides a non-caricatured view of liberalism, which includes acknowledgement of similarities between it and the right and the left where appropriate.

Whatever, we can save it.
We can drop it if you want, but I’m trying to understand.

Is your issue with the term just that it is used by some to caricature liberals in a certain way? Like I said, it gets applied widely and sometimes unfairly. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a real thing or that it doesn’t have usefulness in terms of defining a mode of politics and economics that dominated the globe for 40+ years.

In the same way that Eisenhower was a Republican who governed as a New Deal liberal, Clinton was a Democrat who governed as a neoliberal. They did so within the established boundaries of the political circumstances at the time.

We’ve emerged from that political era, so it’s particularly helpful now in backwards-looking analyses. Republicans throwing around the words Marxist and socialist doesn’t derive the terms of their actual meaning anymore so than leftists throwing neoliberal around.
 
I guess because I lack discipline and depth of study I'm stuck with some unconventional viewpoints. When I look at the last 70 years, so much of this is that we might be living in the teething pains of the most transitional period in history. We are fighting the ending of colonialism and imperialism, the rise of technology and the growth of the information age and everybody is scared as hell.

Most of the world's trouble spots are caused by either the abuses of colonialism ,how it ended or both. The way the countries were divided had horrific consequences and the way the colonies were never prepared to govern themselves maybe worse.

The current social unrest seems like the same tactics of the pitting the disadvantaged elements of society against each other in times of great income and power disparities which is kind of a recurring theme. It's riding the back of the civil rights, women's rights, LBGT rights movements. There are real problems for the working class but the one I haven't seen discussed much is that there is a lessening need for them. The jobs that you can make a living in with a high school education alone are rapidly decreasing. You, at least, have to be able to learn how to operate some sort of equipment. The 50s aren't coming back even if women and blacks are excluded from competition again.

I think it's more about fear and insecurity than anything else and how you handle it. We seem to have those that, throughout my life, tried to limit the whole concept of equality of opportunity and influence on our nation in every way possible, with little regard to tradition or means. We have others who think the more we know, the more sources we look at, and the more opinions we get, the better chance we have of doing the right thing. Hell, we might even get to 50/50. I think the type person you are is formed before you are even aware of politics in any real sense.
“I think it’s more about fear and insecurity than anything else and how you handle it.”

IMO, you’re accurately reading the pulse of the nation with this statement. Working and even just living is much more complicated than it was before the computer age and the intensified push for production efficiencies that it allowed that caused some companies and industries to be winners and others to be losers … and at what seems to be an accelerated pace. There, of course, are other reasons, but working at one place for an entire career seems improbable.

Writing has been greatly replaced by typing. How we receive bills for services, pay those bills, receive our pay checks, have to strategize for income in retirement, … the list goes on and on. It all requires use of devices that most don’t really understand in a way that makes them feel truly secure and leaves them often confused and frustrated.

And there seems to be a never ending list of evil actors trying to hack our accounts, get us to click on links that will expose our information for malicious purposes. It all can easily lead to people being suspicious and even paranoid of things and people that actually have no malicious intent.

Since implementing information technology was a major part of my career, I feel that learning the required technologies exposed me to more understanding than most, and I still feel a need to be obsessively cautious when online - making sure that virus protection is up to date and VPN connected. This is just IT related stuff. I’m not even going to get into people’s confusion and suspicion over healthcare-related matters, or regulations that protect us but can make doing things difficult, or the paranoid reporting on Nextdoor.

The point I’m trying to make is that the general public is ripe for disinformation and paranoia because of what they have not been trained to understand - the real from the unrealistic and the possible from the improbable or impossible. Maybe society is just not equipped for constant exposure to people that can lie and manipulate without guilt or expression.

I guess I just don’t know where we go from here when we can’t trust, believe, or even talk to each other. Maybe we need for everyone to join the ZZL. JK, that’s not always working well either.
 
1. If you're familiar with the old public intellectual journal Dissent, you might think of Jacobin as a 21st century, new media version. Dissent used to come out four times a year, and usually had one lead piece and then three or four 5-10 page essays (sometimes commenting on that story) plus other stuff. I think. It's been a long time. Anyway, Jacobin has shorter pieces (like everyone these days), and it comes out more frequently.

Dissent was not an academic journal, but most of its contributors were academics. That appears to be roughly true of Jacobin, but maybe less concentration of academics. I do think Dissent was a bigger deal in its heyday, which is more a comment about our media world in general than Jacobin in particular. Dissent would pull in bigger names and more prominent people, but again, comparing a quarterly print journal from the 80s to an on-line new media thing is unfair.

2. It seems to be that the author of this piece is conducting an ethnographic study, and if so, you're both right!

Ethnography is a well-respected, fully accepted mode of research with a very long pedigree in sociology and anthropology. Ethnography was how Levi Strauss got started, and Margaret Mead was an ethnographer. In the old days -- that is, until the mid 90s -- the researcher would embed him/herself in the community for a while (a year, two years, something like that), become friends with or at least friendly with the people in the area, and then the ethnographer writes observations. That might still be the method, but a) I haven't read an ethnography since the 90s so I don't know; and b) I have seen wisps of commentary over the years that suggested to me that the basic embedding idea was being reconsidered, but the key word there is wisps.

Anyway, ethnography is not supposed to stand on its own. Well, in the 1920s-1940s, it was; ethnographers would defend their disciplines from encroachment by the statistical analysts. Not a super hard defense to make in the 1920s, but in the 1950s, ethnography and statistical analysis began to be viewed as complements. Without statistics, ethnography isn't necessarily connected to the world; without ethnography, stats are sterile and miss rich detail. That's how I see them. I read a fantastic book about 25 years ago by an academic named Phillippe Bourgeouis, who lived in El Barrio for two years hanging out with drug dealers. I can't remember the title right now, but it was his book from the mid to late 90s and it shouldn't be hard to find.

There are research methods associated with ethnography. It's not just "hang out and then make things up." I can't speak to any of them as I never have been a sociologist or anthropologist.

3. Nothing about that piece strikes me as inherently suspect. The author surely recognizes that Hawaii is not the mainland (I believe she says that explicitly, though it scarcely needs to be said), but I don't think the patterns she identifies would be limited to Hawaii. It's not exactly ground-breaking to suggest that people's views of the world depend on how they get their information, but the argument here is a bit more subtle than that and anyway, we need scientific confirmation of intuitions lest some things we assume to be true turn out not to be.

It is worth mentioning that Duterte in Philippines was one of the first right-wing autocrats (along with his minions) to weaponize social media as mass disinformation. So it's possible the Filipino population was/is especially prone to misinformation. That said, Filipinos in America are often conservative. George Conway is Filipino. David Lat is Filipino (when I found out he worshipped Clarence Thomas, I was floored). There are a couple of Filipinos who right-wingers have put on the bench and they are conservative IIRC.
Thank you for this. I am familiar with Dissent. I can't help but be reminded of the old Woody Allen joke about Dissent and Commentary merging into a new journal called Dysentery.

I am not a sociologist either, and certainly not an ethnographer. I am familiar with ethnography to a degree. Specifically I am more familiar with (though far, far from an expert) autoethnography, especially as it relates to narrative.

For me, and some of it can be because I am less familiar with the genre, when one says something like "studies show..." well I want to see the data from those studies. I get that as an ethnographer it may not be hard, numerical data, but then the author should make that more clear. The way that is worded, to me, makes it seem the author has numbers, percentages, etc. to back it up. The author is talking about demographics there and there is data regarding demographics.

Anecdotal is not the right word. Poor choice on my part. Again, thanks for the discussion. As usual, I focus on the writing, the style, the structure, the organization and in this regard I thought it was rather, hmmm, unmoored I'll call it.
 
See my longer post. It's almost surely ethnographic in approach, which is both anecdotal and highly respected as useful and often illuminating. It's not perfect, and it's hard to replicate. Just as historians delve into an archive and other historians either have to a) spend months or longer in the archives themselves or b) implicitly accept the claim about the historical data and/or its characterization. Thus does history often become a duel of apples and oranges. One historian says, "based on my research of slave journals in Alabama in 1850, it seems like the economy of the south was X Y Z"; another says, "No, based on my research among small landowners in the South Carolina low country, the economy of the south was not Y at all." So too with ethnographies. Nothing is perfect.

I'm not expressing much of an opinion about the specific claims in the article, but I think your well-meaning criticism of the methodology here -- criticism that is valid 90%+ of the time -- doesn't really apply here. That's my sense, at least, from the description of her research as part of a larger research project (probably funded by a donor and involving a collaboration among many researchers).
Again, thanks for the discussion. It is very interesting to get into ethnography and how it straddles disciplines. As stated earlier, my experience is more with autoethnography and that is because of its narrative structure.
 
Thank you for this. I am familiar with Dissent. I can't help but be reminded of the old Woody Allen joke about Dissent and Commentary merging into a new journal called Dysentery.

I am not a sociologist either, and certainly not an ethnographer. I am familiar with ethnography to a degree. Specifically I am more familiar with (though far, far from an expert) autoethnography, especially as it relates to narrative.

For me, and some of it can be because I am less familiar with the genre, when one says something like "studies show..." well I want to see the data from those studies. I get that as an ethnographer it may not be hard, numerical data, but then the author should make that more clear. The way that is worded, to me, makes it seem the author has numbers, percentages, etc. to back it up. The author is talking about demographics there and there is data regarding demographics.

Anecdotal is not the right word. Poor choice on my part. Again, thanks for the discussion. As usual, I focus on the writing, the style, the structure, the organization and in this regard I thought it was rather, hmmm, unmoored I'll call it.
1. I've never heard that joke. It's pretty funny. Also nerdy to an incredible degree. Woody Allen would have been a nobody if he had come around a decade later, lol.

2. Am I missing something here. How can a poster who calls himself Leo Bloom be so concerned with narrative?

3. I think the "studies show" issue you're pointing out is more a reflection of new media than anything. I've observed that articles in publications like slate, vox, 538 -- they are all getting shorter. Considerably. I don't know what's causing it. I'm guessing that they are paying less per piece, but I'm not sure that's the whole explanation. A guy like Ian Millheiser at Vox doesn't really write his column for the money, and even if he does, I doubt very much it took him more than half an hour (if that) to write the paragraph or two that seems now to be missing relative to his other work.

I'm guessing that the publications are themselves imposing a policy of reduced word counts. Serving a 3 paragraph article to a browser costs the same as a 30 paragraph one, so I'm thinking that they are insisting on lower word counts one of these reasons: a) they want a policy of uniformity in length, so that one person's longer articles don't make shorter articles look insubstantial by comparison; and/or b) they want to slim down their editorial staff and that requires a lower word count.

In any case, I'm not sure I would hold the lack of detail against the article, or even the journal.
 
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