GOP & Policies toward/treatment of Transgender & other LGBTQ Americans

[HeelYeah2012]

You understand that using a transgender minor's preferred pronouns is directly correlated with a substantially decreased suicide risk right?

How is it "dangerous" for a teacher to refer to someone the way they request?

A minor’s brain isn’t even close to fully developed. There are a lot of things they can’t do, as a result, because of their lack of judgment (drive a car, drink alcohol, etc.). Changing from boy to girl or vice versa is another one they obviously shouldn’t be able to do at an early age.

And clearly minors who are confused about their gender represent a particularly vulnerable subset of minors as far as mental health goes.

Adults playing along and pretending it’s all normal are not doing those kids the favor they think they are.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

No one suggests requiring teachers to “play along” as you so callously say. This FORBIDS teachers from using a student’s preferred gender. It is massive overreach, and your mischaracterization of the issue as “I don’t think teachers should be forced to play along with someone’s gender confusion” and your “73 genders” cheap shot is demeaning and completely misses the fucking point. I really don’t think you are this simple-minded, but you keep trying to convince you are.

I think it’s good practice for teachers to refer to their students based on their biological sex assigned at birth. I don’t actually think teachers or schools should be punished for doing the opposite. But I would rather a teacher be punished for playing along than for not playing along. But really it should be left up to the individual teacher to either play along or not.

 

[roostra]

A minor’s brain isn’t even close to fully developed. There are a lot of things they can’t do, as a result, because of their lack of judgment (drive a car, drink alcohol, etc.). Changing from boy to girl or vice versa is another one they obviously shouldn’t be able to do at an early age.

And clearly minors who are confused about their gender represent a particularly vulnerable subset of minors as far as mental health goes.

Adults playing along and pretending it’s all normal are not doing those kids the favor they think they are.

Peer-reviewed scientific studies literally say that a transgender minor's risk of suicide and risk of severe depression decreases by over 50% if they are called by their preferred name and pronouns. That seems like a pretty big favor to do for them.

Again, what is the danger if you use their preferred name and pronouns. Like, what specifically will happen to the minor if you address them this way? (and if you can provide your basis for believing whatever the danger is, that would be even better)

 

[farce©]

Again with the “playing along” nonsense. Spend 4 minutes of your time reading this brief overview from the Cleveland Clinic before you continue down this path.

 

[StrangePackage]

Again with the “playing along” nonsense. Spend 4 minutes of your time reading this brief overview from the Cleveland Clinic before you continue down this path.

No man. He "thinks" something, and his ignorance is every bit as good as someone else's expertise.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

Peer-reviewed scientific studies literally say that a transgender minor's risk of suicide and risk of severe depression decreases by over 50% if they are called by their preferred name and pronouns. That seems like a pretty big favor to do for them.

Again, what is the danger if you use their preferred name and pronouns. Like, what specifically will happen to the minor if you address them this way? (and if you can provide your basis for believing whatever the danger is, that would be even better)

I don’t doubt that most kids are happier and less depressed when the grown ups in their life let them do whatever they want to do. Sometimes we have to do things that are in our kids’ long term best interests instead of prioritizing their short term happiness.

The data you cited about suicides is tragic, but it also doesn’t tell the full story. First of all there is a chicken and egg scenario between high suicide rates and being transgender. Does having people not accept your transgenderism really drive the suicides? Or is the mental illness of depression correlated with the mental illness of gender identity disorder in the first place?

The data you cited also doesn’t tell us what happens to the vast majority of people struggling with this confusion who don’t end up committing suicide, and whether the “average” life outcome of those folks is better for people whose parents gently nudged them back to a more traditional life instead of letting them decide at age 10 that they can change their gender.

 

[Calheel]

I think it’s good practice for teachers to refer to their students based on their biological sex assigned at birth. I don’t actually think teachers or schools should be punished for doing the opposite. But I would rather a teacher be punished for playing along than for not playing along. But really it should be left up to the individual teacher to either play along or not.

Ok Heelyeah, this video is an hour long, and Cody does get linked on this board quite a lot, and yes he is definitely quite progressive. That said, I really strongly encourage you to take an hour of your time this weekend to watch the video and just think about some of the points he makes. And maybe even read some of the studies he cites and critiques. You don’t have to agree with everything he says, but you would be a better person and citizen if you at least thought about some of these points.

 

[Healing]

I think a lot of folks presume HeelYeah would prefer a lower suicide risk for trans kids'. But you see, he doesn't care, if caring requires him to accept their existence. I.e. HeelYeah prefers more adolescents die than be inconvenienced by language or the existence of people he doesn't understand. No amount of research will convince. The overwhelming benefit of calling a trans kid their preferred name and pronoun is too tall a task to merely save the lives of children.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

Ok Heelyeah, this video is an hour long, and Cody does get linked on this board quite a lot, and yes he is definitely quite progressive. That said, I really strongly encourage you to take an hour of your time this weekend to watch the video and just think about some of the points he makes. And maybe even read some of the studies he cites and critiques. You don’t have to agree with everything he says, but you would be a better person and citizen if you at least thought about some of these points.

I will give that a shot whenever I have some time. Thanks for sharing!

 

[uncjhodges]

I think a lot of folks presume HeelYeah would prefer a lower suicide risk for trans kids'. But you see, he doesn't care, if caring requires him to accept their existence. I.e. HeelYeah prefers more adolescents die than be inconvenienced by language or the existence of people he doesn't understand. No amount of research will convince. The overwhelming benefit of calling a trans kid their preferred name and pronoun is too tall a task to save just a few lives.

Yea for some reason people keep talking to him like he gives a shit about anyone but himself. He’s the absolute worst person on this board

 

[roostra]

I don’t doubt that most kids are happier and less depressed when the grown ups in their life let them do whatever they want to do. Sometimes we have to do things that are in our kids’ long term best interests instead of prioritizing their short term happiness.

The data you cited about suicides is tragic, but it also doesn’t tell the full story. It doesn’t tell us what happens to the vast majority of people struggling with this confusion who don’t end up committing suicide, and whether the “average” life outcome of those folks is better for people whose parents gently nudged them back to a more traditional life instead of letting them decide at age 10 that they can change their identity.

I'm sorry, but what "average life outcome" could be worse than suicide? How could the worst possible "average life outcome" be worse than a child dying?

Keep in mind, this is completely nonmedical intervention. Most importantly, it is completely reversible. If the person changes their mind (if it is a "phase" as most dismissive folks assert that it is), they can go back to their old name and pronouns. If being called by the their preferred name and pronouns will literally save their life, I see that as an infinitesimally tiny price to pay, even if you think it is silly or ridiculous.

 

[rodoheel]

I’m somewhere between this executive order and where you likely are.

I absolutely don’t think a teacher should be forced to play along with someone’s gender confusion. Particularly in younger grades (at least up to age 14 or so, perhaps longer) where it’s borderline child abuse in my opinion for society to play along with a boy who thinks he is a girl or vice versa.

That said, you can be on one side on the actual social issue (boys are boys and girls are girls) and still say it’s overreach by the government to pull federal funding if a teacher doesn’t fall in line with that line of thinking. Hence why this EO will likely be found illegal, no?

So here’s where I fall, summed up:

1) Teacher shouldn’t have to play along and it’s borderline dangerous for them to play along, no matter how self-righteous they may feel by recognizing all 73 genders or whatever.

2) Government shouldn’t pull funding if teacher does decide to play along.

Yes, the order is definitely illegal. I'm glad you agree it goes too far. Though you don't seem as bothered by the fact that Trump is once against spending most of his time doing illegal things that waste a lot of time and money and cause a lot of unnecessary pain to regular Americans along the way.

I don't necessarily think teachers should be *forced* to use a student's correct pronouns. Probably a first amendment violation. I do think, as a practical matter, any teacher who wouldn't at least call a student the name they ask to be called is not a teacher I would want teaching my kids. In my experience, to be effective a teacher has to respect their students and treat them with compassion. And the kids need to trust them. I don't want or expect teachers to be heavily involved in dealing with any kid's gender issues unless both the kid and the teacher want it that way, but I can't imagine anything more cruel than forcing a teacher to alienate their own students and make the students uncomfortable in their classroom. Which is just what this executive order is designed to do.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

I'm sorry, but what "average life outcome" could be worse than suicide? How could the worst possible "average life outcome" be worse than a child dying?

Keep in mind, this is completely nonmedical intervention. Most importantly, it is completely reversible. If the person changes their mind (if it is a "phase" as most dismissive folks assert that it is), they can go back to their old name and pronouns. If being called by the their preferred name and pronouns will literally save their life, I see that as an infinitesimally tiny price to pay, even if you think it is silly or ridiculous.

There is no worse outcome than suicide. But what if the suicide chance went from 1% to 2% when parents don’t play along (100% increase!) but the other 98-99% of the time the kid turns out to have a way better life? This example is just illustrative. Point is suicide stats alone don’t tell the full story without the context of what the outcomes are for the vast majority of people.

There’s also a middle ground where you can support your child and try to be there for them but still not accept the idea of being transgender. A good analogy in my mind is the same way you’d respond to someone you love being an alcoholic. I use this example because there is alcoholism in my extended family. To support an alcoholic you don’t just encourage them to drink just because that’s what they have an urge to do. You empathize with them, you support them however you can as they seek help, and you’re there as a trusted confidant for them. You don’t abandon them if they fall off the wagon a time or two. But the ultimate goal is to show you love them as they try and work through it all.

 

[sringwal]

For the record, heel2012 equates being transgender with alcoholism and mental illness. There is no reason to engage with him on the issue because he quite simply lacks the empathy to see outside his own experiences. He’s told us as much, repeatedly.

 

[Carolina Fever]

For the record, heel2012 equates being transgender with alcoholism and mental illness. There is no reason to engage with him on the issue because he quite simply lacks the empathy to see outside his own experiences. He’s told us as much, repeatedly.

There is no reason to engage with any of the few MAGAs on here. Just ignore them all.

 

[Calheel]

There is no worse outcome than suicide. But what if the suicide chance went from 1% to 2% when parents don’t play along (100% increase!) but the other 98-99% of the time the kid turns out to have a way better life? This example is just illustrative. Point is suicide stats alone don’t tell the full story without the context of what the outcomes are for the vast majority of people.

There’s also a middle ground where you can support your child and try to be there for them but still not accept the idea of being transgender. A good analogy in my mind is the same way you’d respond to someone you love being an alcoholic. I use this example because there is alcoholism in my extended family. To support an alcoholic you don’t just encourage them to drink just because that’s what they have an urge to do. You empathize with them, you support them however you can as they seek help, and you’re there as a trusted confidant for them. You don’t abandon them if they fall off the wagon a time or two. But the ultimate goal is to show you love them as they try and work through it all.

You could say the same thing for gay conversion therapy.

Just think how much happier these gay kids would be if they could lead a straight life.

 

[farce©]

For the record, heel2012 equates being transgender with alcoholism and mental illness. There is no reason to engage with him on the issue because he quite simply lacks the empathy to see outside his own experiences. He’s told us as much, repeatedly.

It’s apparent he didn’t bother spending 3 minutes reading the brief medical overview I linked.

 

[nycfan]

 

[nycfan]

 

[HeelYeah2012]

You could say the same thing for gay conversion therapy.

Just think how much happier these gay kids would be if they could lead a straight life.

I hear you, and I’m sure some people have made that argument. I might have made that argument myself when I was young & naive but I, like so many others, have grown to accept homosexuality without even a 2nd thought with the passage of time.

The major difference here is that being homosexual is literally based on something that we’ve all experienced: you like what you like, and you can’t help it much. Whether that’s talking about a romantic interest or a favorite food. Can’t really help what you like. Being transgender is a lot different than that because you are trying to convince someone that you literally *are* something you are not.

If someone says “I like spinach” who am I to tell them they are wrong? But if someone says “I literally am spinach” it’s ok for society to tell them they aren’t. Just my opinion and I don’t mind if you disagree.